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I have a dumb question about "High End" guns.
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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

While studying and reading reviews on the Springfield Range Officer that I just purchased, I came to wonder what the difference between "entry level" pistols that cost around $1000.00, and "High End" pistols that cost $1500.00 on up.

Even back when I shot ATA Trap throughout the Midwest with my Model 12 Trap gun, all of the "experts" that I was beating were using Perazzi Trap shotguns, and looked down on my Model 12 and Browning BT99.
I never had any problems with my trusty Model 12, but just couldn't figure out why I felt inferior to the big buck guns that should have been cleaning my clock even though it very seldom happened.

I see the same with 1911s. My Kimber has shot thousands of rounds without a hiccup, and even at 50 yards I can shoot lights out with it. I believe that my Springfield RO will do the same. I am cleaning the clocks with the guys shooting "professional" 1911's, but they still look down on my "cheap" 1911s.

To me $1000.00 is a lot of money.

Where am I going wrong on this one, or, over my lifetime of shooting, am I dealing with snobs who think that spending thousands of dollars on a gun will make them better shots?

Are these high end Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Rock River guns that much better?
How do I get better than no problems shooting thousands of rounds trough my Kimber or even my lowly PT1911.
How do I get better shooting out the x ring at 25 yards with these guns??

What am I not seeing that all of the firearms "experts" are seeing??

I have been pondering this for some time, and figured that I would post this to see what you guys think.

Eric

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

Guns are "high end" for different reason which can be snob appeal, accuracy, special materials used, etc. Though you shoot better than persons with more expensive guns it's possible you would do even better if your gun was better made. Les Baer guns, for instance, have accuracy guarantees which are as good as 0.5 inch 10 shot groups for one of their bolt action rifies and 1.5 inch groups with some of their 1911s; I think getting such results with cheaper off the shelf guns isn't likely.

There are plenty of people who don't really know how to evaluate the quality of something. These deluded souls think "you get what you pay for" which isn't always true.
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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

Thats what I think also Grum.

With rifles or pistols, my view always has been to get a good, accurate, and reliable firearm.
Where I believe that I get the edge, along with being a fairly good shot, starts in my reloading room.
Every one of my pistols for instance, has reloads custom made and tested for its best accuracy.
This takes lots of time, but produces great at the Range.
Bushy once gave me a load for my Chiefs Special that had other shooters checking the little gun to see what I did with it.
I never told them that old BushMaster gave me the recipe for success.

Eric

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

It is the Indian not the arrow.

A top end gun will not help a poor shooter - A good shooter can maximize a marginal weapon.

It comes down to what your expectatons and standards are for accuracy. I can only speak to AR-15 rifles but as your skills improve , you can out shoot your rifle and need to up grade to heavy fast twist barrels free float tubes, two stage triggers stc to make it shoot better than you can. there is a point though where the difference betwen a $300 barrel and a $600 barrel is a few x's here and there and maybe a few hundred more rounds of barrel life

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

I agree with Grumulkin, if a poor shooter buys a high end gun, it will not make up the difference. About the only thing he will gain is bragging rights for the gun.

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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

The only reason that I'm doing this post is that I'm bored to death tonight.
So--I've been googling up some things and have found out that the only reason that the Springfield TRP is considered high end and the RO is considered "entry level" is that the TRP has an ambidextrous safety, front strap checkering etc. Otherwise they are the same gun with the same match barrel, match bushing, and match trigger.

I personally like a basic, old school look, where other shooters will pay $500.00-$1000.00 more for the bells and whistles.

To each his own, but on any range, I have always wanted to undersell myself until the shooting started.

Kind of interesting looking at all of the posts etc. though, and to see how each manufacturer markets their products.

Eric

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

Dawgdad wrote:
It is the Indian not the arrow.

A top end gun will not help a poor shooter - A good shooter can maximize a marginal weapon.

Thats pretty much it.
Apart from the "I'm better than you cause I've a bigger wallet/penis/ego syndrome" that a LOT of people seem to get when they feel richer and can buy the top of the range whatever.
Keep shooting well, it really gets under the skin of some of these wankers, and that's a good thing, proves money cant buy skill.

On the other side of the coin some of the high end guns are brilliant works of art / engineering, smooth right out of the box, accurate ,extremely well finished and beautifully balanced and can be made to precisely fit YOU, all of the above is readily apparent if you pickup a truely top of the line shotgun.
Go with what you can afford and enjoy it, it not worth stressing about what Jones has bought, especially if you clean his clock in competition on a regular basis.

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

ElyBoy wrote:
So--I've been googling up some things and have found out that the only reason that the Springfield TRP is considered high end and the RO is considered "entry level" is that the TRP has an ambidextrous safety, front strap checkering etc. Otherwise they are the same gun with the same match barrel, match bushing, and match trigger. Eric

You hit it on the head. In most cases you are paying for details that are usually more cosmetic than useful. Yes, some of the "custom" guns are better fitted, made to closer tolerances and etc., but that isn't always a good thing. Some of those guns are the most finicky rascals you will ever see. Many are "tuned" for only one specific load or bullet design and anything else will give you fits.

Trends play a role in driving these prices up also. Seems like anymore every semi-auto has to have serrations on the front of the slide as well as the rear, have accesory rails milled into the frame (though why escapes me...it just ruins the aesthetics for me) and a dozen other exotic additions that really don't make such a firearm shoot one tiny bit better than one without all those frills, but is well made...and preced much less.

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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

I also found out that the NM on the serial numbers means that the RO was assembled and fitted at the Springfield Ill. Custom Shop, and I should be able to get sub 1" groups after it breaks in.

Lots of fun tonight browsing the web and talking to you guys.


Eric

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

DD wrote:
...It is the Indian not the arrow.

A top end gun will not help a poor shooter - A good shooter can maximize a marginal weapon.

Exactly DD...it's the shooter, not his gun.

Eric you are obviously a natural shot and can achieve with a standard firearm what the others need a "race gun" to achieve.

I've always viewed the difference between "entry level" and "high-end" as being nothing more than advertising hype...a reason to charge more for a gun that usually has only aesthetic changes.

Cheers, Vince

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

Vince wrote:

I've always viewed the difference between "entry level" and "high-end" as being nothing more than advertising hype...a reason to charge more for a gun that usually has only aesthetic changes.

Cheers, Vince

Not always Vince.
I used to think that until I got to play with someone else's hi end shotgun, the difference in balance, point-ability was VERY noticeable, I wont mention the wood, or the hand engraving, hand checkering etc etc etc that make you weep when you see workmanship that good.
Not all changes are only aesthetic.
It may have made 2 or 3 points difference to what I normally shoot, but the wallet would be on life support, and so would I if SWMBO got wind of it.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

interesting that shotguns are mentioned because this is where the difference is very apparent and it has diddly squat to do with finish or checkering or even how the dang blasted thing is put together!!!!
Its ALL ABOUT FIT. end of story with a shotty
my old single barrel fits me better than my pump.
my old s/s that I sold fitted me better still because I had a morgan adjustable buttplate fitted that I took the time to get right.
now you grandads old greener shotgun or a modern parratzi still has to be made to fit you the shooter. yes they are wonderfull pieces of machinery and are lovely to look at or handle.
rifles either shoot well or dont. if you tootoo with loads enough you should find one that works. gun fit is not so important if you are punching paper or shooting from a rest. if you are snap shooting you NEED gun fit.
hand guns are something I know little about but from the few times I have used them pointability is a design thing it either fits you or doesnt. shooting ping pong balls from the hip with a air pistol was alot of fun but about my limit of experience. up to 10yrds not too hard to do either.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

Yup !!! lots of guys spend the extra cash thinking it'll make them better shots....... many have been disappointed !!!

There is truth in the fact that better equipment can create better results. That however is only true when the shooter possesses the skill level needed to take full advantage of the better equipment.


I have personally experienced this myself through my own trials and tribulations over the years.
I have invested with both satisfaction and regret when it comes to the so called "high end " guns.
Overall I've found that it does payoff to purchase the best equipment that you can afford if you want to achieve top level performance.

I do advocate that a line needs to be drawn as to what point it becomes pride or an over-statement of compensation !!!
At some point you do start paying more for the name or the cosmetic features that do nothing to enhance your ability to become a better shooter.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

dhc4ever wrote:
Not always Vince.
I used to think that until I got to play with someone else's hi end shotgun, the difference in balance, point-ability was VERY noticeable, I wont mention the wood, or the hand engraving, hand checkering etc etc etc that make you weep when you see workmanship that good.
Not all changes are only aesthetic.
It may have made 2 or 3 points difference to what I normally shoot, but the wallet would be on life support, and so would I if SWMBO got wind of it.

Agree wholeheartedly Pete...where shotguns are concerned. But when it comes to pistols, more often than not the high-end guns from the factory...other than those custom made and fitted from the Custom Shop...are really only standard guns with minor cosmetic changes. Now a full blown "race gun" built on hand picked and fitted components is a wonder to behold and shoot...simply magnificent.

Elvis the Stunt Driver wrote:
...Its ALL ABOUT FIT. end of story with a shotty...

110% correct mate. My field grade O/U will shoot with any of the Perazzi's, Miroku's etc so long as I do my bit...but I have put an adjustable butt pad on it so it fits me properly. I am even now considering fitting an adjustable comb to improve things even further. Don't want to do too much though because I also carry this gun in the field.

Cheers, Vince

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English Mike
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a dumb question about "High End" guns. Reply with quote

Last weekend, I shot an unmodified stainless steel Springfield 1911 & scored way better than I normally do.
I very much doubt money could have bought me a better result - apart from fitting an ambi safety, that is.
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