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Best defensive cartridge?
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

I came across this study on defensive shootings in another forum and thought it was worth passing along.

www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Good read Smile Shot placement is the key !!!!!

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Tremblay
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Very interesting. I think i'll stay with my 9mm and 38sp.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

No should argue that shot placement is key.
A 22 LR through an eye will kill just as quickly as a shotgun blast to the neck.
I just happened to notice that the 357 performed very well throughout his testing. I was pleasently surprised!
With fewer people shot by the 357 (fewer than 357 by 25, 32, and 44)
60% were 1 shot incapacitation (head and torso) beat only by 32, 380, rifle and shotgun.
The % of fatal hits beat all but riflr and shotgun.
Fewer shots to incapacitate than all but 22, 32, rifle and shotgun.
Failure to incapacitate beat all but tied with rifle.
Accuracy beat all but 45, 44, and shotgun (tied with rifle).

Overall the shotgun was the hands-down winner which is no surprise for me. I am just happily carrying my 357..........

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Donut Slayer
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

From my experience, 23 years LEO, I've been a few shootings and read info on some that were close to my local. Suspects shot with rifles, 308, 223, etc are almost always fatal. Even when gut shot. 9mm IMHO is fine for back-ups but I cant remember a fatal shoot with one. 40 S&W is good but it depends on what bullet. When we were issued them in Sig 229's years back, we had a number of shoots that were all fatal. The ammo was black talons. Since then we switched to speer gold dots, the fatal % went down and now were issued remington golden saber. The last shoot we had was just a few weeks back. Officer shot a rather large female 3 times in the abdomen area. She lived although one round ricocheted off her pelvis and severed her spine. I've seen these same bullets shot into a point blank vest, they do NOT mushroom 90% of the time. When I first started years ago, one of the old timers shot a guy with a 125 gr silver tip from a 357 mag. Suspect lived although he's paralised too. Now on to the 45acp. I started out carrying a S&W 4506 in 45acp. Loved that handgun. It was loaded with federal hydrashocks. Got into a high speed chase and after it ended I approached the vehicle and the suspect pointed a handgun at me. I unloaded on him. He left running. The 7 rounds I had fired had shruck the passenger side door on their way to the suspect. 3rds were left lodged in the door and 4 rds were in the floorboard of the truck. The door looked like I had cut holes in it with a can opener. The 45 has great energy transfer, but NO PENETRATION. I know for a fact the 40 S&W will penetrate a hollow core door, a closet full of clothes, then 4 layers of sheet rock easily. Just dont ask my how I know. Surprised
I firmly believe shot placement and the bullet are far more critical than caliber. Just my $.02

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Donut Slayer wrote:

I firmly believe shot placement and the bullet are far more critical than caliber. Just my $.02

I couldn't agree more Smile

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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

shrpshtrjoe wrote:
Good read Smile Shot placement is the key !!!!!
wtf That's what I've been trying to teach these wanna be hunters where I live,as I take my deer with a 223 rem,and they need a 300 ripsnortshootacros3canyonsmanglumextremo,or else they believe they will only wound the animal with a 308 or 30-06!AFAIC-Over half of the people who carry guns for whatever reason-should have more range time to really understand what these things are capable of for accuracy and range.And ranges or somebody should have anatomy charts of game animals on display so that these quasi-nimrods could understand where to aim!As for human charts-that's up to the special training agencies to develope.I don't believe that the "PC"public would approve of anatomy charts on display for everyones children and wives to see with a ten ring around them.

The article above is well written and gives some good statistics.So has Asaad Ayoob, Elmer Kieth ,and a few others.The "box of truth" also has some good penetration tests.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Donut Slayer wrote:
I firmly believe shot placement and the bullet are far more critical than caliber. Just my $.02

I think you're dead on there. For both defense and hunting you need to pick a properly designed bullet and put it in the right spot.

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English Mike
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

[quote="Donut Slayer"]......The 45 has great energy transfer, but NO PENETRATION...../quote]

Oh I dunno; I put two 200gr lead SWC's through an eighth inch steel target stand from 50' on Friday.

Got a VERY penetrating look from the RO...... Very Happy
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English Mike
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
Donut Slayer wrote:
I firmly believe shot placement and the bullet are far more critical than caliber. Just my $.02

I think you're dead on there. For both defense and hunting you need to pick a properly designed bullet and put it in the right spot.

Even more so for defensive use; a deer that takes a couple of seconds to become incapacitated isn't going to shoot back.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Totally correct DS...shot placement always has been, and always will be, paramount...in either a hunting or self defence situation.

Having said that, putting the wrong bullet in the right place is nowhere near as effective as the RIGHT bullet in the RIGHT place.

Cheers, Vince

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Fascinating and well thought out analysis. Without going into the various arguments and pros and cons of each caliber/cartridge, the bottom line is use what you are most comfortable with as long as you can hit center mass first time, every time. As much as I despise the .25 ACP, a center hit with one will do more good than a dozen rounds sprayed across the landscape with a .44 Magnum.

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MacD
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

A number of years ago I was approached by a coworker who wanted a firearm for home defence. He had very little experience. After he asked several times I suggested he join a club or otherwise get some firing time in before he gave the question further consideration. He was less than enthusiastic and kept at me until I finally sat him down over a coffee and tried to explain why he had to learn to shoot first. He wanted a handgun. To him all he had to do was point it and pull the trigger and the bad guy would be defeated. He had no idea about recoil, aiming or even the potential that a none lethal hit may turn his attacker into a wounded animal full of adrenalin and even more difficult to stop with subsequent rounds, assuming he had the time to re-aim and squeeze any additional off. I explained that an excited inexperinced homeowner facing an intruder was likely to have difficulty hitting a moving target with a pistol. All he wanted to know was what gun should he buy. Knowing that he was determined I finally told him to buy a pump action, short barrel shotgun in 12 gauge and some AAA shotshells. I told him I would show him how to shoot from the hip. He bought a 38 S&W double action.

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radar
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Good article

DS: love your work. we're using 9mm Glocks with 158grn Hydra shoks, or the M4 A2 in .223 with 55grn soft points (remington I think) I'm not sure of the stats but they all seem to incapacitate pretty well.
Personally I'm loving the Taser....heaps of pain, top result, heaps less paperwork and excellent memory retention by perps - they only get Tasered once cause they give up as soon as its presented a second time!!!

Trouble - u sure are! Love the new calibre "300 ripsnortshootacros3canyonsmanglumextremo" I just about fell off my chair laughing....but I know what you mean.

All in all an interesting post. But the best comments are those form most of you, its not what you shoot but where you put it.

radar

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Best defensive cartridge? Reply with quote

Here is a slightly different take on the "ideal" calibre.

Cheers, Vince



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