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newbie looking at Savage 12VF
By Popular Demand: Discussions related to Varmint Hunting
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crittergitter
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Bowhunt/fish, congratulations on your new rifle, you will not be dissapointed with the savage. I own a savage model 11 in a .204 with accutrigger as well as the 12vf in 22-250. They have proven to be as accurate or more as any of my other more expensive varmint rifles....As far as breaking in your barrel, they are a lot of rigorous procedures out there. I have found that swabbing your barrel every 3 to 5 shots at the range and then clean it real good when you get home works just fine. Good luck and have fun shootin, oh yeah you should adjust your scope whenever you are changing to a different type of ammo!
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Breaking in your barrel is about keeping it clean for the first forty to sixty rounds. Fire one shot, clean the barrel - do that for the first five rounds. then fire two rounds and clean the barrel - for the next ten rounds. after that fire five rounds and clean the barrel for the next twenty five rounds. follow that by cleaning the barrel after each ten shots.
The idea is that you are wearing the tiny bits of metal off the fresh cut rifling and smoothing the machine marks out of the rifling while keeping the copper fouling cleaned out so that the barrel doesn't get a "copper coating" that is "welded" into the barrel. Some people try to by-pass this break-in by using a fire-lapping process but I prefer to keep the corners on my rifling as long as I can. Barrels wear out fast enough without running abrasives through them. If you feel you must lap then hand lap the barrel the way that paper shooters do - that way you don't over do it.

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bowhunt/fish
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

wow pauls,
sounds like a lot of work...i will try it.
do you use a one piece cleaning rod?
where can a buy a nice one piece cleaning rod for a 26" barrel in .223? anyone? thanks

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

There are 2 schools of thought on barrel break in I will post one of these:

Quote::
Posted: 01-27-2000 08:57
I will make one last post on this subject and appeal to logic on this subject I think it is the height of arrogance to believe a novice can improve a barrel using a cleaning rod more than that a barrel maker can do with 30 years of experience and a * million dollars in equipment . The barrel is a relatively precise bit of machining and to imagine that it can be improved on with a bit of abrasive smeared on a patch or embedded in a bullet. The surface finish of a barrel is a delicate thing with more of them being ruined with a cleaning rod in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use one. I would never in a million years buy a used rifle now because you well may buy one that has been improved. First give a little thought to what you think you are accomplishing with any of the break in methods. Do you really believe that if what you are doing would help a barrel that the barrel maker wouldn't have already done it. The best marketing advantage he can have is for his barrels to out perform his competitors! Of coarse he is happy to see you poking things in your barrel . Its only going to improve his sales. Get real!!!! I am not saying the following to brag because the record speak for it' self McMillan barrels won the gold at 4 straight Olympics. Won the Leach Cup eight years running. Had more barrels in the Wimbledon shoot off every year for 4 straight yearsthan any other make. Set the national 1000 yard record 17 times in one year. Held 7 world records at the same time in the NBRSA . Won the national silhouette matches 5 straight times and set 3 world records while doing that . Shot the only two 6400 scores in the history of small bore and holds a 100 yard world record that will stand for ever at .009 of one inch. All with barrels the shooter didn't have to improve on by breaking them in.


Quote::
Posted: 09-25-1999 10:10
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in

Its worth considering what the 2 qoutes say as it was written by Gale McMillan. Smile

Dimitri

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Rifleshooter09
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Midway and Brownells both sell J Dewey one piece polymer coated cleaning rods for reasonable prices. I think I've seen a one piece j dewey rod over 30 inches long. Get you a Stoney Point Universal Bore guide. fits in place of the bolt and guides the cleaning rod throught the chamber and into the barrel without wearing on the end of the chamber and or the rifling in the throat. cost may seem like a lot for both but they are well worth the money. Good luck on you're new rifle. i'm still trying to get a break in done on a new Stevens 200 in 243 Winchester. A man just don't have enough time to attend to all of the shooting, reloading, horseback riding, camping, hunting, fishing, packing, and bsing that he needs to and still hold down a full time job lol. Good luck again
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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

As far as your sight in goes, pick the primary load you will shoot and use point blank software to set your zero. Sight the gun in for that distance. When you have a good group that confirms the setting, adjust the elevation dial to read mechanical zero with that load by loosening the two srews on the adjustment bar and aligning the arrow head with the '0' without making any click's. ( I have a 3200 Elite with the Firefly reticle on my .243)

The difference between the white box 55 and 45 grain loads will be minimal (about 4 clicks on my AR for a 4"PBZ) but you should be able to use Point blank to get a good zero for the secondary load and adjust the clicks for that.

I use that procedure on my 30-06. I have the Stoney point knobs on it and it is zeroed with a 150gr JSP deer load. When I shoot my 110 gr. Varmint bullet I drop down 14 clicks. When I switch back to the deer load, I just return the scope to the mechanical zero setting. I always verify the zero but it has been dead on for years doing it this way.

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shootist
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Hi Dimitri...here's some addition quotes.. Dan Lilja..note the last statement.

"I read the excellent article by Fred Barker on fouling and accuracy in his 6.5 caliber 1000-yard type rifle. Per your request I'll do my best to convey my thoughts and observations on rifle barrels and bullet fouling.

It has been my experience in shooting a number of rifles and barrels used in 1000- yard rifles, that longer barrels and faster twists tend to foul more. And as Fred pointed out, this could be caused more by the long bullets (and the internal forces acting on them) than the barrel. I found too that some bullets just seem to foul more than others. This is no doubt caused by differences in the gilding metal used to make the jackets.

Fred makes some important observations and distinctions between true high-quality custom barrels and production barrels. I liked and agreed with his comment that " . . . in poor quality, mass-produced barrels, that build up thick, rough fouling and shoot poorly, every shot is a flier." One of the big differences between these barrels is the internal finish. A rough barrel is going to foul. After looking at the differences between a production barrel and finely finished lapped barrel in our video borescope, a customer made the comparison that the production barrel looked like railroad ties and the lapped barrel like a mirror.

Makers of custom hand-lapped barrels spend a lot of time achieving the internal finish that they require. We've experimented with different techniques and products and have settled on what we believe gives us the best finish. We strive to get a smooth uniform finish without losing the geometry of the rifling -- that is, keeping the lands sharp-cornered and crisp. And though it may surprise some, lapping to a finer finish will result in an increase in fouling. A barrel can be too smooth.

We've had customers ask about aftermarket operations and procedures that will "improve" the interior finish of our barrels. And I always warn them against it. The thought of lapping with 1200 grit makes me cringe. And I also feel it is very desirable to have the direction of the finish lay parallel to the rifling. A finish like this is produced naturally with hand-lapping. Some procedures can and will produce a directionless finish. My advice is to leave the internal finish to the barrel maker. Trying to "improve" it is only going to make it worse. The exception being unlapped production barrels. "

Regards
Shootist
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bowhunt/fish
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

dimitri and shootist,
so how do you guys "break in" your barrels? if you don't, then how often between shots do you clean your barrels?

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shootist
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Hi B/F...The protocol is exactly as PaulS described.

I use Shooter's Choice/Kroil blended 3:1. Loose wet patch the bore, nylon brush 5 passes, wet patch with Kroil solvent and then dry patches. I prefer one direction passes ,pushing patches out the muzzle end and unscrewing the brush at the muzzle.

When storing, I leave the bore wet with Kroil, then just dry patch and shoot.
During the break-in, I record the position of the first round fired when I shoot the 5 (5 shot +clean) groups.
Monitoring this first clean-barrel shot tells me if I need to shoot a fowler or not.

At one time, I used an extra step to remove the Kroil and condition the bore before shooting using Mil-Std bore cleaner.

On rare occasions, I've used JB paste (.338 Mag stainless barrel that was heavily fouled for about 8") .

Regards

Shootist
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Shootist,

Yes I know unlaped production barrels might benifit. I dont know if I'd go out of my way though ever to break in a barrel unless someone can show me real proof it helps much compared to just shooting your rifle for fun for the first 100 rounds and cleaning properly Cool

Bowhunt/Fish

I myself never broke-in a barrel. I just shoot 5 round groups and clean as my normal procedure when shooting myself. Smile

I'd never use JB (and other abrasives really) as it can round the rifling while "cleaning" damaging the rifling from what I've read. Its highly abrasive so even if it does lap the barrel quickly I highly doubt that it doesnt harm the rifling myself. Smile

And I dont really use patchs while cleaning. Mainly I use a single patch to fill the bore with solvent then brush 10-12 times then a single patch to pick up the extra solvent (Hopps No. 9). Very Happy

But do what you wish this is how I do it. There are better ways like Pauls though. Wink

Dimitri

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Gidday Guys. The way I figure it is simple. "Shooting a barrel in" can't do any harm....it may or may not help. If you don't shoot a barrel in by cleaning after every round, then after every 5th round etc etc etc, is it going to reduce the barrel life even remotely? No one will know for sure because each and every barrel is different, even if only slightly and once you have started using a process you can't go back and try another method.

I went through a short process of breaking in my Weatherby .243 and it shoots nice tight groups at 100m, and I reckon it will be capable of much better than I can produce right up until the day it is no more.

To break in or not to break in?? It is personal choice, and which ever way you choose to go, just squeezing the trigger is enjoyable. When that enjoyment goes so does the sport.

Cheers, Vince

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

Howdy. Good points Vince. I have "broke in barrels" and others just shot away with and can't say one is better than the other. I'm no benchrest shooter and for the accuracy I expect out of a rifle 1 inch groups @100yds has not bin effected by a "break in procedure" that I can tell anyway Very Happy .
Joe

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coyotehunter_1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

When is a barrel completely broken in?
My guess... When it's 99.9999% worn out. Sad


I’ll have to agree with Joe on this. Smile
Quote::
I have "broke in barrels" and others just shot away with and can't say one is better than the other. I'm no benchrest shooter and for the accuracy I expect out of a rifle 1 inch groups @100yds has not bin effected by a "break in procedure" that I can tell anyway

Yep, I've bought used rifles that I knew were never “broken in” when new but were still very accurate and easily cleaned. On the other hand I’ve seen new barrels that would still not clean, well after the shoot and clean method was used. Like Vince said before each barrel is different.

I guess it all comes down to whatever pops your cork. Laughing

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crittergitter
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

I also agree guys! Rigorous one shot cleaning "break-in" procedures have yielded no more accuracy in rifles I own, than rifles wich I have just cleaned as I would normally do. I guess it is a personal choice as you have stated. Everybody has an opinion, but it should be a learned one! Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: newbie looking at Savage 12VF Reply with quote

bowhunt/fish,
I know you are going to like your new 12VFSS .223. I picked mine up on Valentines Day. I lapped bore with JB paste bore cleaner and then JB bore shine. Took it to the range and blew the bulls eye out of target at 100yds. I was shooting UMC 45gr HPs. Gander Mountain has them at just under $60.00 for 200rds. I have never used a Bushnell Elite but heard nothing but good about them. Check out my signature and you will know what I use in the field. Smile

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