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Elvis Super Member
Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Posts: 9253 Location: south island New Zealand
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:51 am Post subject: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Just been delving into my reloading manuals and looking at Hodgdon h4831 which looks to be just the ducks nuts as it gives better velocity than nearly every other powder listed so I order myself a lb tin....
now curiosity got the better of me so Im browsing the load data here and someone says that it is the same powder as ar2213sc????
well hang on a minute if its the same powder...how come the data is different???
Ive used ar2213 before with good results and its easy to get over here,the H4831 on the other hand is not listed but Ive ordered some from local sports shop.
What gives here guys?????
_________________ You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers! |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15715 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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gelandangan Super Member
Joined: May 07, 2006 Posts: 6398 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Mate, all powder manufacturer is worried about getting sued for publishing too high a load.
Most of them are retracting their load figure down to fit the lowest denominator.
You got to do your own load development or forever suffers the consequence of blooompfth..
Hows that for further megaultraconfusticatoring?
_________________ A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.
Do - Not try!
gelandangan.weebly.com/ |
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dhc4ever Super Member
Joined: May 26, 2011 Posts: 2944 Location: Ipswich, Queensland Australia
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Elvis,
Take a gander at the ADI reloading site and look up the powder equivalents, AR2213sc and H4831 are side by side, there are no other powders listed in that row.
H4831, made in oz, sold in the USA, bought by kiwi's and 5 middlemen :-)
_________________ Pete
Dont do anything you wont like explaining to the paramedics.............. |
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Ominivision1 Super Member
Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Posts: 2984 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Here is a link to Hodgdons web site where it shows H4831sc and ar2213sc to be the same powder in the msds sheets. H4831 and ar2213 are the same, the sc means "special cut".
www.hodgdon.com/msds.html
_________________ Regards
Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds. |
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Suzanne Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2009 Posts: 3323 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Me thinks you got your "special cut"
_________________ May the moon keep you centered,
May the sun keep you dancing,
And the stars shed light on your dreams. |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15715 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11393 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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The "SC" stands for "short cut" as in, they cut the original granuals in half for a much denser powder charge to aid in not having a compressed charge.
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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Ominivision1 Super Member
Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Posts: 2984 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Bushy's right, sc stands for "short cut" not special cut.
_________________ Regards
Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds. |
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MacD Super Member
Joined: Apr 08, 2011 Posts: 1052 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Guess the lawyers in OZ haven't put the wind up ADI's management yet. The problem is you have to start somewhere. Some people swear by old manuals and others say that modern powder is more potent so don't use old load data. Online references outside of the powder and bullet makers sites are iffy. Since I have yet not been able to find an accurate load within modern load data limits I am happy. Once I start loading for the 35 Rem I will be trying for the best muzzle energy combination of bullet weight and speed as I intend to use it for moose and caribou hunting. Given the tender rim and the possible tendency for split necks that are sometimes seen in this cartridge I expect I will be doing a lot of careful working up. I have some older factory rounds for comparison and some new Hornady ones as a guide. The action and barrel on the 760 are not a concern as they were used for more powerful calbers.
_________________ La a'Blair s'math n Cairdean
(Friends are good on the day of battle) |
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Elvis wrote: |
well hang on a minute if its the same powder...how come the data is different???
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Just accept that it is and it'll be less frustrating !!!
You know the rules of re-loading.........start low work up.
I've got 5 different re-loading manuals....... all 5 will sometimes give different max when making comparisons.
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11393 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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ByTheWay Elvis...What are you loading...?
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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PaulS Super Member
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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In a long talk with Hodgdon and the Sierra bullet smiths I found that there are only two reasons for the lower charges in the newer manuals.
1. Some guns, like the 357 magnum, have strengths that fall in every catagory from puny to very strong. Smith and Wesson along with a couple of other gun manufacturers have made "marginal" guns in the 357 Mag. Rather than leave the original SAAMI pressure levels at 47000 cup they have petitioned to have the pressures lowered for their guns - and won. The SAAMI pressure limits on the 357 mag have dropped to just 30000 psi and although the original loads are safe in the stronger guns they can cause big problems in the weaker guns. Sierra listed 19.6 grains of H110 / WW296 in their 1985 version of their manual but list a lot lower load in their current manual. That is why I called them. After a couple of long conversations I was assured that the powder had not changed and that my load would still be just as safe in my gun as it was before (I was not loading the maximum but close)
2. The conversion from cup to psi measurements brought with it some surprises. A lot of the old loads were well above the SAAMI maximum pressures but no one ever knew it until they could measure the pressures per split millisecond. The copper crusher gave an average maximum force reading while the peizoelectric method gives much higher definition of the actual curve of pressure over time.
Some loads would spike very high for just an instant while others were moderate for longer periods but they both gave the same pressure measurements with copper crushers. When SAAMI started examining barrels that had been used for years with the old loads they found that the chambers were full of micro-fractures that would ultimately lead to catastrophic failures of the gun. On those loads they reduced the charges of powder or did away with those that were known to be ill-suited for the cartridge as we understand it now.
The manufacturer's manuals are just doing what they have to in order to keep the data at or below SAAMI standard pressures. A few of the old load data have been replaced with hotter loads but some have been decreased. I like using the newer powders so in most cases I have to use the newer information but for my 357 I can use the older data without a problem. I have never had a sticky case or short life of a cartridge so I will keep the very accurate load that I developed in my gun.
_________________ Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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Elvis Super Member
Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Posts: 9253 Location: south island New Zealand
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Bushmaster wrote: |
ByTheWay Elvis...What are you loading...? |
.270winchester. my Nick Harvey manual has loads for this powder. the funny/strange thing is in the text he mentions what a great load with the 170grn speer powered by this powder is but then doesnt list it in the data section
when I looked realy carefully the loads that used the same weight of powder had different velocities so it seems that at some time they were different. I have just got off the phone to my supplier and she will have me a 1lb tin after easter $60NZ which is about $8 cheaper than elsewhere for any powder.
I had a good run with AR 2213 in this rifle but changed to AR2206h because it loads every calibre I have.
now I want some good powder for the old girl (just because) and hopefully it will restore my faith in her I do like the sound of a 170grn speer doing 2800fps might boot a bit but I dont feel recoil when on an animal. paper is a different story .
_________________ You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers! |
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Ominivision1 Super Member
Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Posts: 2984 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! |
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Elvis, you sure it's 170gr? I was over at speers website and the biggest is 150gr for the 270 winchester.
_________________ Regards
Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds. |
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