It happened - AGAIN!!

gelandangan · Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: It happened - AGAIN!!

Well, as some of you know I got a pellet stuck in my 300 whisper barrel last year..

here
and
here
and then
here

Ok, I solved the problem (it turns out that the scope is damaged somehow) and the gun goes back to shoot sub MOA around Easter this year (last month).
So, yesterday, it is the turn of the Whisper to see sunshine again..

I have definitely check and re check my reloads (to the extend of weighing the components before AND after loading for each cartridge)so that there is NO chance of high/low powder or no powder on the cartridge.
You know.. the once bitten etc etc sayings..

So I loads up the cartridges and looks forward to soaking up some sunshine after a week of rain..

Came Sunday, the day is well, not too cold, nor it is warm I think about 20 degree (celcius) or so in the range.

So I shoot my first round.. It feels ok, but through my scope, I cannot see the hole in the target!! Confused

Checking the barrel, yup.. it is clear.. Confused

Hmm.. maybe it is me..
So I load the next round.. squeeze.. and blooompfh! wtf

I GOT ANOTHER ROUND STUCK IN MY BARREL!!!!!!!!! Mad

So what happened???

The cartridges brass, primer, projectile and powder were weighted BEFORE loading and the total is IDENTICAL with the weight of the assembly after they were put together..

The IDENTICAL load were used before and was a very consistent load.

A few variables I can think of, but they seem to be very trivial..
- I am on the bottom of my can of AR2205 powder.. maybe the last few loads left there.
- I am using new box of of primer CCI450.. but I bought them in 1000s batches
- I am using new box of Woodleigh projectile but they are usually very consistent.
- It was raining when I load the cartridges, but I am indoor away from the rain.
- the temperature of the day I last shoot the whisper successfully were about 25 - 26 degree with low humidity and the range is dry, where as yesterday, the range is wet from previous weeks rain.
- I lap my barrel after the last incident, but I shot the barrel after I lap and gets good result.

?????????????????????????

Confused

What did I miss???

Is AR-2205 temperature sensitive?
Could the batch of CCI-450 got swapped with CCI-400?
Could the projectile happened to be a tad fatter?
Could the first shot fouled the barrel enough to stop the second projectile?

AAARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5946

Try using a powder that will fill the case more with less velocity? Or giving up and using a black powder substitute? Confused

Dimitri

Vince · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

Gelan....you have me absolutely knackered mate...as best I can see, you have done everything possible to take questionable reloading out of the equation.

Only thing I can think of mate is that AR2205 is not a suitable powder for your application. It is a great magnum powder for .357 Mag and some smaller calibres such as .22 Hornet. To my knowledge it is not temperature sensitive, well not as we could measure anyway. When you extracted the case, was there any unburned powder inside it...was there any unburned powder in the barrel? Maybe the projectile has cleared the case using the power of the primer, but the powder has not fully burned and "flumphed" into the barrel and not burned properly.

I would say that you could test this theory by loading a projectile with a primer only and firing it, but then that would give you another boolit in the barrel...not good.

I'm thinking that possibly your load is such a small quantity in a large case that the burn of the powder happens in such a way that it is not able to develop full pressure. I would definitely be looking at doing what 'Mitri suggests mate...a powder with a higher density that will fill the case more for a similar pressure level and velocity.

Black powder substitute.....hmmmmm...I suppose that the potential is there, but I don't know if it is a path I would follow.

Cheers, Vince

EDIT: Sitting here scratching my...well anyway...I got to thinkin'...look at each component or item in the equation:

Gelan - Careful handloader...did his part correctly it seems

RIFLE - appears nothing wrong with that except for a dodgy scope. Possibily check headspace.

ROUND:

Case - any cracks, splits failure points?

Primer - Check your primers for Model # and age and storage conditions

Powder - Prime suspect in my mind.
Powder type may be questionable, check age of powder and viability, check quantity of powder in recipe, is it sufficient in volume for reliable ignition and burn. Maybe confirm load with ADI.

Boolit - Top quality (Woodleigh don't supply bad boolits), however, measure a sample of boolits to confirm sizing

Weather - I don't believe this to be an issue.

Vince

roklok · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

Sorry to hear that, Gelan. Have you encountered anyone else out there on the vast web with similar issues with the Whisper? Is it possible that it is a risk you run with this cartridge, with tough, heavy bullets at low velocities? At least you have seen and experienced this problem before and know how to deal with it.

Pumpkinslinger · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

What powder charge are you using? Any idea if AR2205 is sold in the US under a different name?

I did find this list showing SIMILAR, not EXACT replacement, powders. It does NOT mean that the powders are interchangeable!

www.adi-limited.com/ha...alents.asp

Vince · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

Mike...AR2205 is an aussie powder made by Thales (formerly ADI). I don't believe that it is marketed in the US, but it has a pretty good following here in Australia.

AR2205 is a fairly fast powder and best suited to the smaller calibres like .22 Hornet and also doubles as a pretty good powder for Magnum pistol loads. I have used it in .357 Mag loads and it is great, however I am not really convinced that it is the best powder for the .300 Whisper.

Cheers, Vince

fnuser · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

To my mind the fact that you're getting a pop means the primers are doing their job. Don't have much else for you though, except a harebrained theory that doesn't link up any of the above. Is it possible that lapping your bore has reduced pressure enough that you need to up your charge for desired results.

gelandangan · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

I think I found the problem!!!

The crimp!!!
I have look at the fired case.. it has very shallow crimp marks on it, whereas the other loads have deep crimp marks.
I use Lee FCD to crimp and it usually squeeze the cases deep enough to make canelure in plain jacketed bullets.

Well, I will try again and again and again.. and again......

Ohh goodie.. plenty of shooting ahead Very Happy

Pumpkinslinger · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

Thanks Vince! I found this load info for the .300 Whisper using 220 grain bullets but note that all of the bullets listed are "softer" than the FMJ Woodleigh that Gelan is using.

www.reloadersnest.com/...Weight=220

gelandangan · Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

Another thing about those loads published is that most of the guns have shortish barrel, 18 - 20 inches where I use a 24 inch.
Which means that the projectile were subjected to a bit more (up to 25%) friction time than the others.

chambered221 · Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

I like your crimp theory!!!

In comparison to a .357 case capacity, heavy bullets, slow burning pistol powder, (I believe it to be similar to W296 and H110) cold weather, got the makings of a squib load.

kentucky hareraiser · Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

sure there was powder in that round,,, if there was.nt , the primer itself would maybe ,push the bullet halfway or so in the barrel and not have enough get up and go to send it out the other end.. in a loading tray of brass ,when i thought all was powdered up i double checked and sure enough 2 was empty. when concentration was broke by betterhalf or someone stoppin' by to say hey... just a thought

chambered221 · Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

gelandangan wrote:

The cartridges brass, primer, projectile and powder were weighted BEFORE loading and the total is IDENTICAL with the weight of the assembly after they were put together..

KH I think you missed something !!!

sniper · Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

Gelan:

Stuff like that is what makes handloading so much FUN! Very Happy

It sounds to me as if it could be 1) Contaminated powder, or 2) Primers.

How long have you had the powder and primers, and under what conditions have they been stored? Is your powder measure and scale accurate?

I second the suggestion of a bulkier powder.

Do look at your reloading procedures to be sure that they are consistent. Double check every step of your reloading, to be sure you haven't forgotten anything. (like primers...don't ask how I know this! Embarassed

)

Peer deeply into the cartridge cases to be sure they are properly powdered. Shocked

You sure have had your share of troubles with your 300 Whisper, haven't you?

Good luck finding a solution. I just hate it when stuff like that happens!

gelandangan · Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: Re: It happened - AGAIN!!

snips..

yes I agree!
it also make wildcats fun