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.32 H&R magnum
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Gelan, I'd never heard that before! How much difference is there over time?

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

OV1 wrote:
...I still believe that brass sitting around for years will get brittle.

Interesting...answers a few questions as to why I have had some 30.30 brass split in the past.

Now the burning question...can the cases be re-annealed to return them to a nice "soft" usable case? With the cost of cases these days, it is certainly a consideration. Its easy enough to "dismantle" the round for heat treating.

Cheers, Vince

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

I have only tried it a couple of times back in the 70's annealing the cases with a conventional oven and propane torch. I would get the temp of the neck area up to around 600 degrees and then let them cool, it seemed to help as I definitely got more reloads per case. The down side is if you use an oven like I did, up goes the electric bill, them smaller ovens would probably do the trick. I thought about getting one of them convection ovens and trying a batch of cases just to see what happens. One thing was back then I didn't have a neck sizer and had to do full case resize on 30/30 and /06 and I never crushed another shoulder with them annealed cases.

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Maqwa
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
First off 1895 and I both agreed it's the brass !!!

Second........If you want me to read something post it or provide a link.
I quit reading that mag a long time ago because of it's bias opinions.

And lastly I definitely don't believe everything I read, hear or even see. I'll make my own conclusions with the facts that are presented.



The referance was not to single you out my friend . Embarassed
I don't always believe what I hear , read Etc, sorta stopped that " teacher said bit " in grade two or was it grade eight ?? LOL can not remember !! Usually when some thing is being said I will reseach it a bit to see if any one will back it up if I question it at all. nough said .
Most of the time one learns a lot more "keeping an open mind"

Brass years ago was annealed to a degree when loaded . then factor the tension of the bullet on the brass and over time the brass will split . Suz might have had the ammo ten- twenty dears , but how long was it on the shelf before she bought it ?
As for re anealing old brass , In my opinion it should work , but as being a fact -well then I never tryed it myself. I just tossed it .
If it was something I could not replace or even rare like 303 Savage, It would be sure worth the time and efford to pull the ammo and try to save the brass.

The article just said it a bit better . Smile
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fnuser
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

I don't know if this will muddy the waters or add facts but I have original boxes of 8x60 cartridges loaded by norma that are split never even fired this seems to be an extreme example but it is a fact to consider i will try to include a photo

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

old stuff



tn.jpg
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8x60
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fnuser
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

well the picture didn't come out very good but take my word for it this is an original (and old ) box of 8x60 cartridges that are showing split necks they have never been fired and are from my collection of cartridges i have another box just like it that has never been opened,

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
Gelan, I'd never heard that before! How much difference is there over time?

Pumps,
I am not an expert in age softening Very Happy , I am not that old yet, thus not as experienced as most of you oldies
(Bushy? You wanna pipe up? Razz )
Here is where I learn about these www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
Apparently the higher the TIN content, and the harder the lead mixture is the more the changes.
An observer recorded -4 BHN from a 30 BHN casting and -1 BHN from 11 BHN casting.
Again, I am not expert on these, and have only casted boolits for less than 5 years.

I did test and prove the hardening effect of cast boolits within a few week is true.
My average scrap range lead, air cooled cast would tested to about 10 BHN at the day I cast them,
and increased to about 12 BHN after 2 weeks and 13 BHN after 1 month.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Very interesting Gelan! Thanks for the info.

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Maqwa
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

On the older equipment cases were annealed to hardness at the time they were to be loaded . Then again when loaded the ammo was put under stress by the tension of the bullet and over time the case's become to brittle and they split .
Now we have better methods of controling the brass hardness before they are loaded and as well as after they are loaded thanks to computers that can better measure such things .
You might have some ammo as I that dates back to WW! as I have that appears to be fine . Well I think it might be pure luck they got it right then in 1918 .With the powders and primers of the time , I sure things might be a tad different inside the case .

When you anneal your own brass with a torch , How hot are the necks before you toss them in cold water ? In your answer you might be able to tell me the colour of the brass but not the temp. Right ? So it was many years ago . Hope you have a better picture .If not I will dig up the page in the Mag , as he tells it better .
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Magwwa:
Back then when I annealed brass cases, we had them little discs that you put on the surface of the metal being heat treated. Now-days they have crayons that are calibrated for what ever temp you want. If you heated the cases with a torch, you never want to get above the light blue color or you will likely have a ruined case. The temp you want is 600F to 650F and when I hit that temp I quenched the case in a bucket of cold water.

On this subject of case cracks, 2 years ago I took my 340wtby out to the range shooting factory loaded ammo and upon firing the belt and case separated leaving the shell inside the chamber. The factory loaded ammo (I think Norma Loaded for Weatherby) was bought new in 1977. So my guess is that older belted cases must weaken with age because after I removed the stuck shell, I loaded another round and same thing happened. I gave up with the rest of the shells and pulled the bullets and deprimed them. My newer reloads are ok.

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Last edited by Ominivision1 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Cartridge Brass;

The manufacturing process involves starting with a slug or strip of brass and working it through a series of forming steps to end up with the finished product. Throughout this process multiple annealing procedures are performed in order to keep the work hardened brass soft so that it doesn't crack or split. The finished case will have multiple areas of hardness. The neck being the softest and the base the hardest.

The annealing process has always been an issue for the industry. Although today they have much better controls in place to end up with a more consistent product.


When we see cartridges split upon first firing it is simply because they were not annealed properly from the factory.
As for FNuser's factory loaded stuff I believe that they too had an annealing issue. If the necks were too hard upon bullet seating I could see were microscopic cracks my have occurred but never reveled themselves until years later after they have gone through several environmental changes of heating and cooling.

There is also the possibility of a third element exposure such as ammonia.
Ammonia will cause brass to become brittle but here too the level of initial hardness will play a role. The softer the brass is the longer it will take for it to become brittle enough to crack.

Bottom line......It all comes down to a proper manufacturing process !!!


Can the re-loader anneal brass? The answer is yes.....with the proper know how !!!

There have been many articles wrote on the subject and there is some controversy as to the proper method that should be used.

Here's an article wrote by Ken Light Annealing

It's an interesting article that obviously promotes his better mouse trap but in my opinion isn't necessarily needed.
It does however give an excellent understanding of the mechanics behind the issue.

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Well, it does make sense that the bullets would be loaded in a slightly undersized neck, that's the way we still do it to provide tension which in turn gives a little inital resistance and better powder burn. And since we don't live in a perfect world (as much as we try to control these variables) the necks would have a weaker spot somewhere around the circle. Whether this is due to the thickness or the alloy any weakness would result in that spot containing the crack or split. I personally have seen cartridges split in as few as 10 years when stored in a garage or shed where the enviorment was not as controlled. So this would seem to support the theory of "age hardening". I think that 8x60 example was from 1949 as I obtained them about 5 years ago after discovering them on a shelf in a sporting goods store. My purpose was twofold one to keep them from being fired in a rifle (as that particular cartridge was loaded hot to begin with, one load was even identified as "Magnum Bombe") and to add them to my collection.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

fnuser wrote:
I personally have seen cartridges split in as few as 10 years when stored in a garage or shed where the enviorment was not as controlled. So this would seem to support the theory of "age hardening".


The question I would ask then is why is there so much old brass out there that hasn't split ???

I've tried searching the net for any studies that have been done on the subject but could only find debates such as we are doing now.
I truly wish I could find some definitive information on the issue !!!

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ROADJOCKY
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: .32 H&R magnum Reply with quote

Hey guy's,I have been following you on the spliting of cases and finding it all very interesting. I am using brass that I have been using for over 20 yr's in 222 and also 22-250 and now we have stepped up in pressure with some of the newer bullits that we use now.We have not had a split case yet.I do have a question though about the brass on the 17hmr.We have had splits on all brands made and using three different brands of rifles,all ammo was purchased new in the last year.has anyone had this same problem?
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