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250-3000
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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laurent
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: 250-3000 Reply with quote

I am looking for a 100 grs. bullet to reload that could be stabilized in a Savage 99 with a 1-14 twist rate.Does anyone had any luck with a 100 grs bullet.

Thank you
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Sorry I have no actual experience with it but....................
Sierra's 3rd edition manual list a 1-14 twist in their test info.
That would make me think their bullets should work.

Nosler specifically states theirs will not work !!!

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speed swede
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

the 100gr bullets will not stabilise good in 14 twist unfortunaly Sad
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

You might try 100 grain round-nosed bullets. They tend to be shorter than equivalent spire-points and often stabilize when the spires won't. It is bullet length rather than weight that will be your concern with that slow twist. You won't really give up all that much in either performance or trajectory since the old .250 is a medium range cartridge with the 100 grain bullets.
If you really want to use spire points, you might try some of the Barnes or other premium 90-grain bullets. They have a reputation for out-performing most common 100-grain bullets.

Good luck and let us know you you make out.

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Actually, in looking over my previous post, I am curious. Have you tried any 100-grain bullets yet? Nosler doesn't recommend any of their bullets for 1/14" twist barrels, but you shouldn't have a problem with others until you pass the 100-grain mark. 100 grain bullets have long been the staple diet for .250 loads meant for deer and antelope for years...even in slow-twist barrels. Trying to use 115 to 120 grain bullets is out of the question at that slow rate.

I would try Hornady, Speer, Barnes or Sierra 100 grain bullets before abandoning the quest.

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laurent
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

SingleShotLover wrote:
Actually, in looking over my previous post, I am curious. Have you tried any 100-grain bullets yet? Nosler doesn't recommend any of their bullets for 1/14" twist barrels, but you shouldn't have a problem with others until you pass the 100-grain mark. 100 grain bullets have long been the staple diet for .250 loads meant for deer and antelope for years...even in slow-twist barrels. Trying to use 115 to 120 grain bullets is out of the question at that slow rate.

I would try Hornady, Speer, Barnes or Sierra 100 grain bullets before abandoning the quest.
Yes,Last week I did reload and shoot the 100 grs. Speer hot-cor but it was the boat tail not the flat base over 36 grs of Win760,with an average speed of 2500fps and I could not get it to stabilize,I got key holes at 50 yards.Yesterday I sent an email to Hornady because in their reloading manual they are the only one who mention the 1-14 twist with their bullets,so maybe it means that it will stabilize.I will let you know.
Thank you.
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

The Greenhill formula indicates that the maximum bullet length for a .257" diameter bullet in a 1 in 14" twist is about 0.710" You should be able to use a little longer bullet with the velocities you can get.

The Lyman manual says that 100 grain bullets "seldom" work in that twist.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

I just checked this link.
If Pumpkin is correct ........................... Hopefully a little longer is about 1 inch !!!

www.shootforum.com/for...letdb.html

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

The 1-in-14" twist was used when the heaviest bullet available for the .25s was 85 grains. Later guns went to a 1 in 10" twist. (According to Lyman)

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Since what little experience I have with the .250 was with a couple of rebarreled "small ring" Mausers (one of which did have 1/14" twist while the other was 1/10". I got curious so I researched some old articles. According to an article by John Haviland in Handloader issue 211, 100-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and 100-grain Winchester factory loads (SilverTips) shot very well (.59 and .65" respectively) in his old Winchester M54 (1/14" twist) at 2,600 to 2,750 fps. 115-grain bullets averaged 6 to 10 inch groups!

Frankly, the Nosler results puzzle me since those Ballistic Tips are long! You might have some luck if you can find 100-grain bullets that are more of a "semi-spitzer" configuration. Those noses are a bit more blunt which would effectively shorten the bullet length without giving up too much on the trajectory side.

Quite an interesting problem. Be sure to keep us updated...and good luck.

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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

I just read this post for the first time. What I see is a series of problems that are compounded and you guys are trying to help on one end but Laurent is doing a number of things to cause himself pronlems.

A boat tail bullet is designed for distance and rarely is stable under 100 yards.

A flat base is stable out of the muzzle.

A boat tail incrases the length of the bullet as does a spire point. Do both and add a HP you have the longst bullet possible in a given diameter.

If you want to shorten the bullet you must go to a flat base or a round nose or at best, a FBRN. Of Course, a flat nose accomplishes the same thing as a round nose.

If you need .710 length (my computer program says 13.95 twist rate is optimum) in a 257 bullet and you are looking for a 100 gr bullet then I believe you are out of luck. All of the 100s in my lists are at or over 1.00 inch and 1.00 inch requires a 1-10 twist by my program. Suggest you try changing to a lighter, shorter, bullet with a solid base or partition for penetration.

Just remember that the basic premis in ballistics is that an unstable projectile is unstable at any velocity. Stability is a function of twist rate and not velocity. You are stuck with 1-14 so work to it, do not try to buck it.
Best,
Ed

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laurent
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Just received an anwser from Hornady=

Laurent, We haven't had any issues with getting the 100 gr. bullets to
stabilize in the 1-14" Thanks


So I guess I will be trying their bullets.
I will let you know soon as I get a chance to reload and shoot those bullets.

Thank you
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Swampfox, I rounded up from 0.708"...

Laurent, the Greenhill formula is really for bullets under 2000 ft/sec. Over that you can go a bit longer. Over 3000 ft/sec you can go longer still. BUT the book I have doesn't say how much longer...

I'll be waiting for your results!

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Pumpkin, If your referencing Rinker, on page 142 it’s noted that over 3,200 FPS you can decrease 1 turn for every 350 FPS.
(obviously we are working on the edge and no-where close to that. )

Swampfox, in that same book there are references that state higher velocity will stabilize a bullet that is shot from a slower twist than would be satisfactory for lower velocity.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 250-3000 Reply with quote

Thanks Chambered! That's the reference book I had in mind but I hadn't looked it up. It says that over 1800 ft/sec you can use a 20% longer bullet OR a 20% slower twist. That would give Laurent about an 0.85" bullet length to work with. Gotta love that book! I'm going to redo my spreadsheet calculation to take that into account.

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