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LEO Kills Fifth Victim
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

I'm not saying there are not some bad cops out there but from what is stated in this article I feel he did the right thing. There's no way the officer could no who the perp was or his back ground at the time of the robbery. By the article the perp claimed to be armed and did not respond to the officers orders. 10 incidents is alot, but I'm sure they were all investigated and with that many shootings I would think they were investigated well. Being a cop is a tough job with tough decisions. There life is at risk every day. I don't envey them but I do respect them. My statments are based on the info in the article above.
Joe

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

A lot depends on what the assignments that cop had all his life. Was he placed in harms way because he could do the job and survive? Assigned to drug investigation and apprehention? Or traffic control?

Yes we all know cops that have only drawn their guns at qualification ranges and we also know of cops that tend to be somewhere else when the SHTF...

This analigy may be way off base, but I have made my fair share of "unauthorized dismounts" and have been berrated by those who claim that they have never been thrown by a horse. Most of them have never been outside an arena or it's vicinity...Or ridden on "briddle trails " and never on a real trail in the mountains let alone foot hills. Sooo...I'm a bad horseman because I have placed myself in situations where I am more prone to being tossed? Right?

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

I worked 4 years for a ambulance company. In doing so got to work alongside police and fire from time to time.
I had the privalige of meeting and becoming friends with some of the best people I've ever met.

Working the public sector (police, fire, and ambulace) you learn real quick how many clueless, uniformed, ignorant armchair quarterbacks are out there !!!!!

Your given a job to do and evryone expects you to uphold the oath you've taken.... Until it's actually time to do your job !!!!!

My question is this: Why is it always someone who's never humped the chest of a dying person, pulled someone from a burning building or stared down the barrel of a loaded gun telling us what " we should have done or how we should do it" Mad

I salute officer Simone, job well done Salute

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

FALPhil wrote:
I feel like the cops are not doing their job. There was plenty of information to determine who the guy was, including video.

He was a crack addict - easy to find and pick up. In his prior felonies, there were no convictions related to violence, just theft and drugs. Reporting the information at hand would probably have ended up with the guy being in jail before sundown.

Look, this cop has been involved in 10 shootings. The vast majority of cops never fire their guns in the line of duty. Something is way out of proportion here.

I went back and reread this story. Given the information in the article: The perp robbed a bank while claiming to be armed, refused to stop for a police officer, climbed into a vehicle after being told to stop and reached down for something. If I had been the cop, much less being a cop who had been shot and stabbed before, I think I would have shot too.

I can't and won't "Monday morning quarterback" this incident because we have limited details and I wasn't there. Note that the article doesn't say whether the perp had a gun or not. All the "coulda, shoulda" stuff is pointless.

I have to ask, if this cop had allowed the guy to escape so he could be picked up later and the perp did the same thing several hours later when the cops tried to arrest him then, would it have been OK to shoot then?

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OntheLasGallinas
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Bushy, great analagy.
FALPhil, exactly right.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

FALPhil wrote:


Resisting arrest by fleeing does not warrant death. There was no indication from the information provided in the articles that the perp was a danger to the public at large (although there is an indication that the bank had a policy to to take every threat at face value).

There have been many cases where innocent "fleeing suspects" were killed based on mistaken identity.

Each year in the US, more innocent people are killed by cops than cops are killed in the line of duty. .

Hello FALPhil:

I appreciate your counterpoint posts some of which are thought provoking. Hence, I ask your comments to the following, if you will:

You cite cases of misidentification of fleeing suspects. I am sure there are some on record, however, in re-reading this article and specific to this case, there was no misidentification. The officer was in the bank when the subject robbed it. As such, your comment specific to this incident seems irrelevant or did I miss your point? If so, what was your point specific to this case?

Second issue: You state "more innocent people are killed by cops . . ."
Is this your opinion or do you have a specific reference to back up your statement? Until I see a credible reference, I would find that very hard to believe.

Thanks in advance for your response and references.
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FALPhil
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Handloader wrote:
Second issue: You state "more innocent people are killed by cops . . ."
Is this your opinion or do you have a specific reference to back up your statement? Until I see a credible reference, I would find that very hard to believe.

I'll have to dig up the website. I used to track this kind of things myself, but I got busy with a real job. There is a website that chronicles cop goofs, though, and this is not my opinion. The statistics on the site also include innocents killed by cop cars while in hot pursuit of real perps.

Edit:

Here is an article all should read:
www.jacksonville.com/t...1320.shtml

Only watchdog groups keep account of innocent people killed by cops.

According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, 48 officers were killed by all causes in the line of duty 2006.

According to Pursuit Watch, between 1993 and 2003, 86 people in Indiana and 3877 nationally were killed by police pursuits; nearly one-third were innocent third parties. That's 130 on average per year in the study. And that's just hot pursuit chases. It does not count the beatings and shootings in which get covered up like the grandma case I cited earlier.

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Last edited by FALPhil on Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Some more information.

www.clevescene.com/200.../supercop/

Dimitri

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

What does it take to go from "crack-head/bank robber" to "victim".
Everytime I see that title it grates against me like sandpaper on a strike anywhere match.
(It burns my biscuits)

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

All I know is that My friend is under investigation for doing his job....

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twofifty
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

hunterjoe, imo there's nothing actually wrong with investigating when a police officer shoots a citizen. Loss of life is not taken lightly, even when the dead are bank robbers or crack-crazed zombie killers.

I don't really know of any deaths that aren't 'investigated', at least to a minimal degree. That's what our western societies hire Coroners for. Insurance companies investigate claims. Even the army investigates some combat deaths.

What matters is that when all the facts are out, your friend's conduct is found to be within his department's rules of engagement.
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

FALPhil: thanks for the links and provided information; its appreciated. I'll do some poking around and get back in a day or so.
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d_hoffman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

It was reported to the officer that he was an armed bank robber.
He was non-compliant with the officers commands.
That is justification for the use of deadly force... and yes,
that's coming from a fellow officer.

Vince, I totaly agree with you and everybody else that believes he had justification no matter how many times he's been in that situation.

Joe, I know we've had our disagreements before but on this one, I'm with you 1000%. I sincerely hope everything comes out good for your friend.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Cops kill a lot of innocents...I have an idea...Let's get rid of all the cops and do your own police actions against YOUR criminals and I'll take care of mine...One step better...Get rid of the court system too...

As long as there are those that insist on feeding on the honest there will be a cop that may make a misjudgment and kill or wound an innocent...But for every innocent there are hundreds of criminals put away or killed by cops...I say we keep them as long as they don't rise up against us...

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OntheLasGallinas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

[quote="twofifty"]hunterjoe, Loss of life is not taken lightly, even when the dead are bank robbers or crack-crazed zombie killers.

I totally disagree!!!!!!!!! If I were there and packing, with my concealed carry, the police wouldn't have had to shoot him.

And, no, I wouldn't try to talk him out of it, by trying to reason with his feminine, compassionate side!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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