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What can I use as filler?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

OneEightNineFiveEssEss wrote:
Yep, that's exactly what I would do! I mean why try to make a .243/6mm out of a .338 when there are lots of calibers out there that would work for her? I just makes sense................ I mean ............ I wouldn't expect my wife to shoot my high power .45-70 loads and why would I download them to .30-30 or .35 rem levels when I have a .35 rem she could shoot? I know you're talking about a girlfriend but hey, I'm sure she's worth a new rifle ................

Can't agree more. Get a new rifle mate. And...if you think that maybe the relationship may not last, then simply put this new rifle into your armoury right from the get go and bring it out for her to use. That way you will always have it for this reason...and future girlfriends. Very Happy Very Happy Laughing Razz Cool

Cheers, Vince

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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Dunno Vince.....

Any chick that's willing to trip triggers on a .338, reduced loads or not, is a Keeper by any measure...

Am wonderin' tho', if her truck has a decent tires and a hitch on it..................
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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

wildswalker wrote:
Dunno Vince.....

Any chick that's willing to trip triggers on a .338, reduced loads or not, is a Keeper by any measure...

Am wonderin' tho', if her truck has a decent tires and a hitch on it..................

Good point mate. Definitely food for thought.

If he truck is a bit dodgy then hopefully she has a decent quad bike and snowmobile...or at least access to a good truck...or maybe Dad owns a Brewery or a pub. Very Happy Very Happy

Cheers, Vince

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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Nuthin' sexier than a smokin' hot babe jumpin' down outta a lifted Chevy one ton with a mean set diggers on it/her....from the drivers seat.

Have seen that time or two....grins.
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twofifty
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Nice thread drift...

How about?

Nuthin' sexier than a smokin' hot babe jumpin' down outta a lifted Chevy one ton....from the driver's seat....taking her turn to 'chain up' said truck while wearing worn Carhartt overalls?

grins x2
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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Am figurin' a high ridin' set of Levi cut offs and a scant halter top makes for better viewin'.....

But to each his own..............
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
B). The primer exposed partially and is able to push the bullet forward, into the lands before igniting the powder itself, creating a barrel obstruction situation.
-DallanC

Dallan, I got thinking about this... I believe that, when the primer pops, the pressure inside the case would be slightly less as the powder charge decreases (more space for the gas to expand). However the pressure would be the same throughout the chamber. What I' trying to say (through my "night-shift brain fuzz") is that I don't think the primer alone would move the bullet any more with a low powder charge than with a high powder charge. I guess you could take an empty, primed case with a bullet seated and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet and then take another primed case with some inert filler and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet.

Man, the things you think about when you're sleep deprived... Shocked

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
Dallan, I got thinking about this... I believe that, when the primer pops, the pressure inside the case would be slightly less as the powder charge decreases (more space for the gas to expand). However the pressure would be the same throughout the chamber. What I' trying to say (through my "night-shift brain fuzz") is that I don't think the primer alone would move the bullet any more with a low powder charge than with a high powder charge. I guess you could take an empty, primed case with a bullet seated and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet and then take another primed case with some inert filler and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet.

Man, the things you think about when you're sleep deprived... Shocked

The specific case where I read this particular theory, was with regard to ultra-low powder amounts in a case, ie: the "mouse loads" as wildswalker called them. These were in cases that where less than 5% full of powder, yet generated massive pressure spikes.

/shrug like I said originally, lots of theories out there but no-one knows fore sure just what the cause or causes is.


-DallanC
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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Don't think the pressure generated by the primer alone is mundane and harmless....it'll drive the bullet further into the lands than you think.

What happens with mouse loads, ie: any load in any case where the powder charge lays low in the case or shifts below the path of the primer jet, is, that the primer "fire" which is supposed to ignite the powder column from the back.....skips over the powder with enough force to drive the bullet forward before the powder charge can ignite properly.

This creates even MORE space for the charge to ignite in and the bullet then becomes a barrel obstruction........in essance a pipe bomb.

VERY dangerous situation and is compounded exponetially by a larger, and/or fatter case capacity.

Remember that smokeless powder ignition is a CONTROLLED burn not a free for all explosion. The "burn" acts as an explosion when all systems are go, as in what a powder's load parameters dictate, but vary from that on either end and you have things out of whack enough to change the CONTROLLED part.

Filler in a bottle neck case is a slightly different animal as it's SUPPOSED to by design take up the room left by the missing powder in the light charge and keep it close to the primer where it can ignite. This does work in a straight walled case but with a bottle neck the filler itself acts as a barrel obstruction effectively sealing off the bore. With the bullet unmoved it adds to the blockage as well. POWDER and powder alone is the ONLY thing that should reside within a metallic bottleneck cartridge case.

The gas HAS to go somewhere and it would usually go in your face along with various pieces of the gun's action........likely the bolt driven straight back into your mug in a best case scenario. NOT pretty..........

There's a REASON why load manuals specify a minimum AND a maximum load range. Stay within that range for best health............
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Morax
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

This creates even MORE space for the charge to ignite in and the bullet then becomes a barrel obstruction........in essance a pipe bomb.


accually this is not in any essance of a pipe bomb. a pipe bomb is a fully closed device whereas nothing "moves" easier or harder than another part of the device, therefor as pressure builds in the pipe it splits or shatters at the weakest point found, which is an unknown spot.

a slug in the rifling of a barrel is just that a slug in rifling, ie the path of least resistance.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

H4895 is a good powder for reduced loads in just about any case. It can be down loaded to 60% of maximum without suffering ignition problems or accuracy problems. That is what the Hodgdon loading manual says and I have used it in a few of my 3006 loads that tend to prove it. A 338 is a big case but I would be willing to bet there is a load for H4895 in the book for it. Start at 90% of max and work your way down to 60% or when accuracy drops off. (which ever comes first)

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

I kinda like the new rifle idea... Look at a Rem model 7 in .260 Rem! Laughing

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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Morax wrote:
This creates even MORE space for the charge to ignite in and the bullet then becomes a barrel obstruction........in essance a pipe bomb.


accually this is not in any essance of a pipe bomb. a pipe bomb is a fully closed device whereas nothing "moves" easier or harder than another part of the device, therefor as pressure builds in the pipe it splits or shatters at the weakest point found, which is an unknown spot.

a slug in the rifling of a barrel is just that a slug in rifling, ie the path of least resistance.

Would like to know if you've the balls to prove me wrong that an obstructed barrel is not "in essance a pipe bomb"....

Closed on both ends with nowhere for the expanding gas to release fast enough to prevent a rupture.....??

Exploded fragments of gun action/barrel metal causing death and/or injury...???

I've seen some dumb chit posted on the net but that's gotta rank right up at the top of the list, Cudos........................
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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Morax says this was NOT "in essance a pipe bomb" when it happened.......

Duh...............

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? Reply with quote

Dallan and the others have it right. One of the hazards of the Cowboy Action Shooting sport is that everyone wants to shoot pipsqueak loads to just get the bullet to the target with as little recoil as possible. This is generating a lot of business for the manufacturers in replacing the guns that split cylinders or lose top straps. The primers ignite and push the bullet partially out of the case faster than the powder charge can burn. Once the powder charge reaches peak pressure, the bullet has created a blockage causing pressures to sky rocket.

The same thing is now known to have happened in the .357 Maximum revolvers. What everyone thought was powder granules eroding the forcing cones of revolvers was actually caused by certain bullets moving forward from the primer ignition, stopping in the cone, and then being kicked in the butt by the actual pressure of the powder ignition. In this case only scoring (and occasional splitting of the forcing cone) took place as a result of the strength of the revolvers, but in weaker designs or different circumstances a bomb could be created!

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