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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15715 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
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Deleted_User_2665 Super Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 380
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Dunno Vince.....
Any chick that's willing to trip triggers on a .338, reduced loads or not, is a Keeper by any measure...
Am wonderin' tho', if her truck has a decent tires and a hitch on it..................
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15715 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Deleted_User_2665 Super Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 380
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Nuthin' sexier than a smokin' hot babe jumpin' down outta a lifted Chevy one ton with a mean set diggers on it/her....from the drivers seat.
Have seen that time or two....grins.
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twofifty Member
Joined: Feb 07, 2007 Posts: 158 Location: BC Rockies
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Nice thread drift...
How about?
Nuthin' sexier than a smokin' hot babe jumpin' down outta a lifted Chevy one ton....from the driver's seat....taking her turn to 'chain up' said truck while wearing worn Carhartt overalls?
grins x2
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Deleted_User_2665 Super Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 380
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Am figurin' a high ridin' set of Levi cut offs and a scant halter top makes for better viewin'.....
But to each his own..............
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5002 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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DallanC wrote: |
B). The primer exposed partially and is able to push the bullet forward, into the lands before igniting the powder itself, creating a barrel obstruction situation.
-DallanC |
Dallan, I got thinking about this... I believe that, when the primer pops, the pressure inside the case would be slightly less as the powder charge decreases (more space for the gas to expand). However the pressure would be the same throughout the chamber. What I' trying to say (through my "night-shift brain fuzz") is that I don't think the primer alone would move the bullet any more with a low powder charge than with a high powder charge. I guess you could take an empty, primed case with a bullet seated and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet and then take another primed case with some inert filler and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet.
Man, the things you think about when you're sleep deprived...
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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DallanC Site Admin
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 3572 Location: Utah
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Pumpkinslinger wrote: |
Dallan, I got thinking about this... I believe that, when the primer pops, the pressure inside the case would be slightly less as the powder charge decreases (more space for the gas to expand). However the pressure would be the same throughout the chamber. What I' trying to say (through my "night-shift brain fuzz") is that I don't think the primer alone would move the bullet any more with a low powder charge than with a high powder charge. I guess you could take an empty, primed case with a bullet seated and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet and then take another primed case with some inert filler and fire it to see how far it moves the bullet.
Man, the things you think about when you're sleep deprived... |
The specific case where I read this particular theory, was with regard to ultra-low powder amounts in a case, ie: the "mouse loads" as wildswalker called them. These were in cases that where less than 5% full of powder, yet generated massive pressure spikes.
/shrug like I said originally, lots of theories out there but no-one knows fore sure just what the cause or causes is.
-DallanC
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Deleted_User_2665 Super Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 380
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Don't think the pressure generated by the primer alone is mundane and harmless....it'll drive the bullet further into the lands than you think.
What happens with mouse loads, ie: any load in any case where the powder charge lays low in the case or shifts below the path of the primer jet, is, that the primer "fire" which is supposed to ignite the powder column from the back.....skips over the powder with enough force to drive the bullet forward before the powder charge can ignite properly.
This creates even MORE space for the charge to ignite in and the bullet then becomes a barrel obstruction........in essance a pipe bomb.
VERY dangerous situation and is compounded exponetially by a larger, and/or fatter case capacity.
Remember that smokeless powder ignition is a CONTROLLED burn not a free for all explosion. The "burn" acts as an explosion when all systems are go, as in what a powder's load parameters dictate, but vary from that on either end and you have things out of whack enough to change the CONTROLLED part.
Filler in a bottle neck case is a slightly different animal as it's SUPPOSED to by design take up the room left by the missing powder in the light charge and keep it close to the primer where it can ignite. This does work in a straight walled case but with a bottle neck the filler itself acts as a barrel obstruction effectively sealing off the bore. With the bullet unmoved it adds to the blockage as well. POWDER and powder alone is the ONLY thing that should reside within a metallic bottleneck cartridge case.
The gas HAS to go somewhere and it would usually go in your face along with various pieces of the gun's action........likely the bolt driven straight back into your mug in a best case scenario. NOT pretty..........
There's a REASON why load manuals specify a minimum AND a maximum load range. Stay within that range for best health............
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Morax Super Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2006 Posts: 618 Location: Pittsburgh Pa
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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This creates even MORE space for the charge to ignite in and the bullet then becomes a barrel obstruction........in essance a pipe bomb.
accually this is not in any essance of a pipe bomb. a pipe bomb is a fully closed device whereas nothing "moves" easier or harder than another part of the device, therefor as pressure builds in the pipe it splits or shatters at the weakest point found, which is an unknown spot.
a slug in the rifling of a barrel is just that a slug in rifling, ie the path of least resistance.
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PaulS Super Member
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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H4895 is a good powder for reduced loads in just about any case. It can be down loaded to 60% of maximum without suffering ignition problems or accuracy problems. That is what the Hodgdon loading manual says and I have used it in a few of my 3006 loads that tend to prove it. A 338 is a big case but I would be willing to bet there is a load for H4895 in the book for it. Start at 90% of max and work your way down to 60% or when accuracy drops off. (which ever comes first)
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5002 Location: NC foothills
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Deleted_User_2665 Super Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 380
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Morax wrote: |
This creates even MORE space for the charge to ignite in and the bullet then becomes a barrel obstruction........in essance a pipe bomb.
accually this is not in any essance of a pipe bomb. a pipe bomb is a fully closed device whereas nothing "moves" easier or harder than another part of the device, therefor as pressure builds in the pipe it splits or shatters at the weakest point found, which is an unknown spot.
a slug in the rifling of a barrel is just that a slug in rifling, ie the path of least resistance. |
Would like to know if you've the balls to prove me wrong that an obstructed barrel is not "in essance a pipe bomb"....
Closed on both ends with nowhere for the expanding gas to release fast enough to prevent a rupture.....??
Exploded fragments of gun action/barrel metal causing death and/or injury...???
I've seen some dumb chit posted on the net but that's gotta rank right up at the top of the list, Cudos........................
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Deleted_User_2665 Super Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 380
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Morax says this was NOT "in essance a pipe bomb" when it happened.......
Duh...............
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SingleShotLover Super Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1005 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Re: What can I use as filler? |
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Dallan and the others have it right. One of the hazards of the Cowboy Action Shooting sport is that everyone wants to shoot pipsqueak loads to just get the bullet to the target with as little recoil as possible. This is generating a lot of business for the manufacturers in replacing the guns that split cylinders or lose top straps. The primers ignite and push the bullet partially out of the case faster than the powder charge can burn. Once the powder charge reaches peak pressure, the bullet has created a blockage causing pressures to sky rocket.
The same thing is now known to have happened in the .357 Maximum revolvers. What everyone thought was powder granules eroding the forcing cones of revolvers was actually caused by certain bullets moving forward from the primer ignition, stopping in the cone, and then being kicked in the butt by the actual pressure of the powder ignition. In this case only scoring (and occasional splitting of the forcing cone) took place as a result of the strength of the revolvers, but in weaker designs or different circumstances a bomb could be created!
_________________ If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!
The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.
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