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Weaponry for CCW
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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4rum
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

This is the first forum I've ever seen where this subject didn't go nutzzz and have to be locked. I credit Dallan's timely "guidance" for this. I'm impressed by the good sense shown by all concerned with this thread.

My one piece of advise is... If you EVER carry... ALWAYS carry. You would be amazed at how word gets around. If a perp suspects that you MAY be packin' he'll either shoot you because he's a coward, or to get your piece.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

Boy...You sure know how to wreck a CCW carrier's day...Now we'll be suspious of everyone that pass' us except, maybe, that baby in the baby carrage... Very Happy

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glockman55
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

4rum wrote:
This is the first forum I've ever seen where this subject didn't go nutzzz and have to be locked. I credit Dallan's timely "guidance" for this. I'm impressed by the good sense shown by all concerned with this thread.

My one piece of advise is... If you EVER carry... ALWAYS carry. You would be amazed at how word gets around. If a perp suspects that you MAY be packin' he'll either shoot you because he's a coward, or to get your piece.

What do you mean "word gets around? Concealed carry means just that. Your not going around telling everyone that your packing, come on. Yes they are cowards, I think they would be more apt to target Women or Old people that can't defend themselves, but I have seen alot of people in their 70's taking CCW class. and I say good for them. All I can say if some slime ball thinks he's gonna take my gun, he better kill me first because that's the only way. Sure it could happen, but I think I'm more aware of my surroundings since I have been carrying.

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4rum
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

glockman55 said.......

All I can say if some slime ball thinks he's gonna take my gun, he better kill me first because that's the only way. Sure it could happen, but I think I'm more aware of my surroundings since I have been carrying.

This was my point exactly. If you carry... carry. The one time you DON'T have it is the one time you get your feelings hurt.

And I live in a small town... word does get around. ... believe me.

I don't have a CCW. But many of my friends do. I know most that have one. I know the instructor. I know when he is on the pistol range instructing. I know the Sheriff.... I have known him for over 40 years. I know that his agency is the only county agency here that issues CCW permits. WORD GETS AROUND.

And believe me... that is one distinguishing characteristic of slime balls. They'll kill you for a dime. Your handgun is worth much more than that.
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glockman55
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

I don't have a CCW. But many of my friends do. I know most that have one. I know the instructor. I know when he is on the pistol range instructing. I know the Sheriff.... I have known him for over 40 years. I know that his agency is the only county agency here that issues CCW permits. WORD GETS AROUND.


I here what you are saying.. I too live in a small town, My Dad is the training instructor here and the range is on my property where I live, also I print up the Certificates for the class. So I know the ones who have taken the class. I carry all the time, hopefully I'll never have to use it, but I am prepared to. I think another important thing to point out is practice with your weapon. Not enough people do. I shoot at least twice a week.
Take Care.

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4rum
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

Without trying to come off as 'tactical' you are exactly right. Practice is the one thing that will make a difference in an armed confrontation. Most folks that have a fire arm for protection only, figure out how to load it (or have some one do it for them), then lay it in a drawer.

If it's a revolver, they should know single/double action. If its a semi-auto, it is imperitive also to KNOW where the safety is ... AND WHICH POSITION IS SAFE OR FIRE !!!!!!!!!

In the sunshine, with birds sangin' ... a breeze in the brambles and pretty flowers poppin' up all around, we can usually read the markings on the weapon or see the pretty red/green dots. If we are low jacked, at 2 a.m., in low visibility, high stress... WE NEED TO KNOW... it's not the time to look.

Familiarity of ones weapon, and the assurance that it is in good repair are unquestionably of paramount importance. My original observation was just that, an observation to add to the many other fine comments and life lessons of the other contributors.

I would hope that we all could add something constuctive to the wishes for the welfare of every responsible citizen.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

Aah...Yer just gettin' "tactical"...

We have beatin' this for a long time and your refresher is a welcome string reviver. The more we expond on this subject the more we will be aware of our responsibilities...

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Morax
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

ok i gotta jump in on this one, I was teaching my wife how to handle a pistol, safe fire drills etc.. well she grabs up my .41 loads her up racks the slide, puts it on safe.. turns sideways sits down in the chair, flips it off safe brings it to "boob" high, and proceeds to fire it across her body into the target... I spaz cause of what the hell are you doing? she tells me "if i am in the car sitting down and some SOB trys coming in the window".... i just shut my mouth right there!!
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george20042007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

Good one Morax, practice from all possible scenarios. Lately I've been practicing with the target at ten feet from the muzzle, shooting while looking only at the target. It seems to get you into the fight a lot sooner than taking time to aim.

I also recommend carrying a gun that has no safety like the KELTEC P3AT. That's one less thing one has to think about and gets the gun into the fight sooner. That same gun is carried in my front pants pocket, no holster. It leaves no signature of presence, but, you do need to practice getting it out of the pocket and into action.

I agree...practice a lot...incorporate different scenarios...and carry all the time. Mind set is important also; have you ever thought about what you would say to a would be attacker to defuse a situation so you won't have to shoot your way out of a sticky situation? That too needs to be addressed.
Keep it coming...
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

george20042007 wrote:
I'm beginning to see this discussion is focusing on caliber more so than the tool that delivers it. . . . .
Keep it coming...

Marshall and Sanow's index of one shot stops is a good reference regarding the effectiveness of specific cartridges AND the type of ammo used. FMJs in any cartridge are far less effective than the technologically advanced personal defense loads such as Federal HydraShock, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester SXT, Corbon, etc.

While "bigger is better" is confirmed by Marshall and Sanow, there isn't a huge difference, for example, between 9X19, 40 S&W and 45ACP when using PD rounds. Keep in mind, however, that more people are killed with the lowly 22lr cartridge than any other in the USofA. While not advocating its useage in CC, autopsy reports of 22lr damage shows it to be a wicked, nasty little round.

Far more critical is hitting one's target and doing so quickly regardless of what firearm is carried. Carrying concealed isn't a big advantage if the handgun isn't readily deployable; contraptions like pocket holsters, any SOBs, and Thunderwear may not be the best choices. IWB holsters can be advantageous or they can be a hinderance and that is usually proportionate to cost. Shoulder holsters are uncomfortable and, often, slow to the draw as well which leaves us with a properly designed and carried belt holster.

Milt Sparks, DeSantis, Mitch Rosen and other quality belt holsters, for many, offer the fastest access and in demostrations of speed are among the easiest to use. Quality holster do little good if not matched with quality belts, good stiff belts of the proper width. Here the goal is to effect a presentation as quickly as one can perform with open carry. Anything less places one at a distinct disadvantage.

The 7 yard "defense zone" shouldn't be violated before one can draw and fire. The "Robo Rabbit" is one device that starts from 7 yards and charges the shooter; here the objective is to draw and double tap before the rabbit gets to you. Amazing how challenging this excercise can be. Amazing how few CCW holders can perform the task. At 7 yards, if an assailant has an edged weapon and the person being attacked has a holstered handgun, usually the knife will beat the bullet. It takes about 1.5 seconds to cover 7 yards. Add that nasty adrenaline and many will fumble the task of an effective draw and fire.

Practice. Repeating a dry fire practice 2,500 to 3,000 times will train muscle memory. Most effective CCW holders dry fire practice regularly with the firearm and holster system they will be using. Practice.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

Allow one added thought, that of "commonality".

Many of us have more than one handgun and often they are of different types. For example we mainly have:

Single Action revolvers
Double Action revolvers
Striker fired single action
Striker fired double action
Hammer fired single action
Hammer fired double action

Each of these handguns have different controls and operation technique. Commonality suggests that the ones we carry for PD should be of the same genre so that our familiarity with them is constant when under intense life threatening pressure. A SIG is distinctively different than a Beretta, a 1911 different from either. When carrying concealed, having different guns to use may be attractive, however, it may be to the carrier's advantage to have them of the same type.

This gives some credence to the phrase, "beware the man that has but one gun".

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4rum
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

This is a nasty subject, but I'm tickled to death to see so much responsible response. Guys any of us could find ourselves in this situation. It is a reality. Good common sense approaches to savings ones own butt, or the butt of a loved one, need to be discussed in this light. I think practice and familiarity with WHATEVER weapon you have is the ticket to your best chance of surviving an encounter. One other consideration we all face individually is... once drawn... will we shoot?
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

"once drawn... will we shoot?" wonders 4rum. The answer depends on how well thought out has been the issue of carrying deadly force. Taking the life of another requires a definition of circumstances and a prior mental commitment to apply deadly force under specific conditions.

Prior to using a firearm, there are a whole range of options that need to be considered including flight if possible. De-escalating the confrontation may be an option as well. Being situationally aware may preclude one from having a confrontation in the first place. That said, the only time I have drawn in personal defense is with the intent to kill.
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4rum
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

Handloader:

I think that covers it pretty well. The novice just needs to be aware that once a weapon is presented, the situation has escalated. If the individual is not willing to commit fully, drawing a weapon is the worst thing they could have done.
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tracker
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Weaponry for CCW Reply with quote

I have a good friend, who I've mentioned in other posts, who's a cop. She told me she was in one situation where she was pulling the trigger. With the S&W 9 mils they're issued, pulling is the right word. THey have a nine pound trigger squeeze and she was thinking "I'm actually shooting this guy" The way she described it was almost like she'd stepped outside herself and was viewing the situation as a third party. I think that in many ways that might be a good thing. The perp surrendered before she completed the trigger squeeze, so she didn't have to.

Conversely, I have a friend in Montana who was recently attacked my some crack head slimeball who tried to mug her. He kicked her legs out from her from behind and demanded money. She punched him in the 'nads and he ran off. I've encouraged her in the past to get some kind of CCW and appropriate training and I think now she's willing to, cost has been prohibitive for her to date. In the situation, I have no doubt that she would have shot the guy.

In both cases, I think the bad guys deserved shooting. I'm no John Wayne, but the reality is, these guys put themselves in the situation where they are harming or threatening others and....well they brought it on, right?

I guess my point being that the weapon carrier's "situational awareness" is absolutely key and of course training, training, training. Course the other part of this story is I really don't need any of you fellas ever meeting witih my wife and saying "hey how come so many of his friends are women?" Cool

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