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Deresonator
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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tlo7mm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Deresonator Reply with quote

So I am looking at tightening up the groups on a couple of my guns and am thinking about trying out a deresonator. They are inexpensive and based on reviews seem to work quite well. Anyone on here have any experience? What are your thoughts?

www.midwayusa.com/prod...rel-rubber

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

How do you know how far to slide this gizmo onto the barrel?
And how to ensure in the heat of the chase it have not move (and thus affect the point of aim)?

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

Browning Boss system worked on this principle...anyone seen one in last 10 years????? try a better/firmer hold of forend and forget/take off your bi pod shoot over a soft daypack/cushion etc and see what happens to your groups....sure worked wonders for me.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

There is no need for one if you're handloading !!!

The harmonics of a barrel are fine tuned with load development. IMHO if you were to put one of these on and it worked, you haven't done your job as a handloader.
Now if your using factory ammo it might be a helpful aid. Hopefully it stays where you put it, otherwise you could be doing more harm than good.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

Elvis, I have seen a few !!!

The Boss system suffered it's demise due to lack of understanding and realistic expectations. Handloaders didn't need it and factory ammo shooters expected too much from it. That combined with the noise generated from the brake lead to guys just taking them off, that's why Browning offered a tuner only option.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

yeah Mate I hear you...but only just having been beside a .25/06 on one occasion and a 30/06 on another both fitted with the ported version.
give the no bipod/firm grip of forend rested on cushion a go and see how you get on.

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

By adjusting the bullet jump to the rifling you can do the same thing. If you only shoot factory ammo this will help but you probably would need to verify the setting with each lot of ammo you buy. .22 rimfire smallbore target shooters use these all the time with great results.

I was working up a load for a 95 gr. Berger in my .243 AR and with all the same components and the only variable being the bullet jump to rifling I had the following results - Touching - 0.000" jump - 5 moa group. - 0.030" jump - 3.5 moa - .060" jump - 0.5moa 0.090" jump - 2.0moa..... I may tweak around the 0.060" in 0.005" increments to see if it gets even better than that but I am not unhappy finding the 0.5moa spot.

As Chambered eluded to - once you time the exit of the bullet from the bore with the slowest part of the barrel vibration you get a real sweet spot for accuracy. Your tuner works the other way by changing the vibration characteristics of the barrel to get the same result.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

that explains it betterer than anyone else EVER has thanks Dawgdad.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
that explains it betterer than anyone else EVER has thanks Dawgdad.


I agree, even I do understand this now! It's a different look on chosing a sweet spot and developing a load and it adds a lot of extras on the importance of bullet jump. I have to admit that for me, bullet jump was more ment for benchresters as I do have a 6,5x54 MS with a very long throat, so a very big bullet jump and still shooting accurately. I had in my mind bullet jump connected with egalizing the force to extract the bullet out of its case.
Never too old to learn...
I became a better nut Smile
thanks!
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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

lots of moving parts with neck tension throat dimensions and even different bullet jackets and bearing surface that will impact these results but the simplified version above covers all of the bases. This process allows you to pick a bullet you want to use, pick a powder charge that gets you safely to the velocity you want and then tune the accuracy to the best group.

The "old ways" of trying several brands of bullets and powder at a fixed OAL can get expensive. I can work up a good load in less than 40 bullets usually.

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

www.bergerbullets.com/...ing-shoot/

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

here is a post I made on another forum...sorry for the thread hijack...

Load development... What is your strategy?
It appears that we have a diverse group with a broad experience base so I thought I would start this thread to see how others work up a new load or test existing loads in a new rifle. For a lot of rifles and calibers there are the standard "Go to" loads that have shown to be safe and accurate in a wide variety of rifles. My load development for the M1A was just this, an H4895 "equivalent" of the Federal Gold Medal match load - loaded it , shot it 0.75" at 100 yards... done. .223 for service rifles with 1:8 or faster barrels - there is no load development - 23-24 gr of any number of medium burn rate powders with a 77 match bullet at magazine length of 2.250" - sub MOA... done. But what do you do when you have a new caliber and a bullet that does not have the history of a known good load?
This is my process. I make no claims other than it works for me and if you choose to try then follow all safe reloading practices and work up to any max loads published.
I will use my R25 .243 AR as an example. I had a .243 bolt rifle for coyote hunting for years and a ton of experience loading the 55-75 gr varmint bullets at velocities from 3500-4000fps. I used these loads out to 350-400 yards with no problems. I wanted to possibly use the R-25 in a mid range prone (300-500-600) or even a long range prone 800-900-1000) and knew the lighter bullets would be a big disadvantage in the wind at those distance compared to a heavier higher BC bullet. So... here is the process I used of to select a load for stretching the legs on the .243
Bullet selection - I knew I wanted a bullet with a high BC approaching 0.500 that was as heavy as possible. But - I knew the R-25 had a 1:10 twist barrel so anything over 100 gr was not a good candidate to be stable. To prove that to myself (yeah, waste of time and barrel life but I did it anyway,) I loaded up some of the Nosler 107gr and sure enough they Keyholed at 100 yards. I next chose two 95 gr bullets to try, Berger 95 hunter/target and a Sierra TMK 95 gr. These both should be stable at the velocity I was hoping to get from the 20" AR barrel and hold supersonic to 1000 yards. I use a couple of different ballistic calculators and determined that with a muzzle velocity of 3000 they will be at 1400 at 1000 yards with the BC near the 0.500 number for each bullet.
Powder and charge...First you go to the bullet manufacturers and ask for data that they have and what they found to work in their test barrels. Then look on your shelf and see what you have. In this case, IMR7828, 4350 and 4831 and the Hodgdon powders of the same numbers were suggested. I had the IMR7828ssc and the 4350 on the shelf so I went with those first. Looking at the data from several sources the 7828 max load shown as 45+ grains and 3100fps while the 4350 was 41+ grains to get 3060... I chose the 7828SSC since it fills the case to 95% or greater load density while the 4350 was only 88% full. My experience tells me that I get better results with a fuller case. (I used a WLR primer - have not tried a magnum primer - may try later to compare the results)
So to the range with the Bergers loaded in 0.5 gr increments from the starting load of 41.5 to the max load of 45.5gr. (two cases each charge weight with mfg OAL setting) - I shoot these on the same target and watch the vertical point of impact as they charge increases. This is an application of the ladder test or Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) theory where I want the change in vertical impact for a 0.5 gr to be as small can be. I am also looking at each fired case for pressure signs. If possible I am chronographing these shots for an idea of velocity but I did not do that in this example. This is better seen at 200 or 300 yards but if you can shoot good groups off of a bench you can also tell at 100 yards. As you start shooting the bullet impacts move up the target. The impacts at 44.0, 44.5 and 45.0 are almost on top of one another. The max load of 45.5 shows some flattening of the primer and is out of this group so I stop there. What I have determined is a plateau where if my powder charge is not exactly dead on I will not see a significant change in elevation because of it. I use this idea in my Service rifle and throw all my charges for 200 and 300 and only weigh the 600 yard stuff.
So now I have selected a bullet and a safe charge that by the book is near the velocity I want to get. Now, I want to see how it shoots for accuracy. I use the plan set up in the Berger link www.bergerbullets.com/...ing-shoot/ to select my jump lengths. If it is a magazine fed rifle and I plan to use the load from a magazine, you start with that mag length as your max Overall length and play from there. For single loading as is done in long range I would measure the distance from the bolt face to the throat with that particular bullet. Proper tools and technique for measuring the base of the case or actual bolt face to the ogive (Point on the bullet profile that first reaches bore diameter) are critical to a meaningful measurement.
Following the Berger plan I started touching and went out .030" at a time to find out where the sweet spot for group size is. My goal is always sub moa bit usually expect .75 moa or better before I am satisfied. When I reached half MOA on three shots... I stopped. With this information I jumped straight to accuracy testing at 44.5 gr with the TMK as it is a very similarly shaped bullet. Similar results - 0.5 MOA 3 shot group but at a different jump than the Berger....

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

My 30-06 has such a long throat that I can't touch the rifling with a bullet under 200 grains. A 180 grail bullet will be out of the case before it touches the lands. What I have to do is change the powder charge to get the accuracy that I am after. It is still capable of 1/2 MOA groups but I generally get slightly larger groups at about 5/8". The rifle is an 03A3 with a sportsman stock, turned bolt and a 4x12 scope with a 50 mm objective lens. It also has a Timney trigger and safety on it. I remember the day my dad got it from the CMP for $5 plus postage. I remember him finishing the stock he bought for it with boiled linseed oil hand rubbed over a period of weeks. when he died I got the rifle and shot it with the military peep sights until my eyes got so bad that I had the scope mounted. It is a great gun and maybe some day I will put a heavy barrel on it with a nice chamber but for now it is one rifle I will part with when I die.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

you supposed to load .308winchester for maximun load concentricity over bullet jump length...eg stick it further back into case so it STARTS OUT straight while doing a spacewalk into rifling.
our Sons old BLR shot a group just under an inch loaded this way with a really tired looking barrel so there must be merit in it...it works for me so wont muck around with it..load written down.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Deresonator Reply with quote

as long as you have a good die set and keep at least a bullets diameter length into the neck you will be able to keep concentricity down under 0.002" runout.

A long throat like Pauls is a bit like the magazine length maing out your length. I still will test mag length loads in 0.010" steps back until it is getting too short to see if I can improve. I load my 223 77gr match bullets at 2.230" and not 2.250 or 2.260 that will be max maglenght, the reason... I found the groups at 2.230 were slightly smaller but much more round with less vertical and horizontal dispersion. YMMV

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