HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 285
BOT: 1
Total: 286
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Photo Albums
03: Home
04: Forums
05: Home
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Your Account
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Photo Albums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Statistics
17: Forums
18: Photo Albums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Your Account
22: Home
23: Your Account
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Photo Albums
29: Photo Albums
30: Home
31: Home
32: Photo Albums
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Your Account
38: Home
39: Home
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Home
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Your Account
46: Forums
47: Photo Albums
48: Forums
49: Home
50: Forums
51: Photo Albums
52: Forums
53: Home
54: Your Account
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Your Account
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Home
63: Forums
64: Forums
65: Photo Albums
66: Photo Albums
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Home
70: Forums
71: Home
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Forums
80: Photo Albums
81: Forums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Home
86: Forums
87: Forums
88: Forums
89: Photo Albums
90: Forums
91: Home
92: Your Account
93: Forums
94: Photo Albums
95: Your Account
96: Forums
97: Your Account
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Forums
101: Photo Albums
102: Photo Albums
103: Home
104: Your Account
105: Photo Albums
106: Home
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Forums
110: Home
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Photo Albums
117: Forums
118: Photo Albums
119: Forums
120: Your Account
121: Forums
122: Forums
123: Forums
124: Home
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Home
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Home
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Photo Albums
135: Photo Albums
136: Home
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Your Account
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Forums
143: Your Account
144: Your Account
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Forums
148: Forums
149: Home
150: Your Account
151: Forums
152: Your Account
153: Forums
154: Your Account
155: Home
156: Forums
157: Forums
158: Photo Albums
159: Forums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Your Account
163: Forums
164: Home
165: Forums
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Your Account
171: Forums
172: Your Account
173: Home
174: Forums
175: Forums
176: Forums
177: Your Account
178: Forums
179: Forums
180: Forums
181: Home
182: Photo Albums
183: Forums
184: Photo Albums
185: Forums
186: Photo Albums
187: Forums
188: Forums
189: Home
190: Home
191: Forums
192: Photo Albums
193: Photo Albums
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Forums
197: Home
198: Forums
199: Home
200: Home
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Home
205: Forums
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Your Account
209: Photo Albums
210: Forums
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Forums
216: Forums
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Photo Albums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Photo Albums
223: Forums
224: Forums
225: Your Account
226: Home
227: Home
228: Your Account
229: Forums
230: Forums
231: Forums
232: Forums
233: Home
234: Photo Albums
235: Home
236: Home
237: Forums
238: Forums
239: Forums
240: Your Account
241: Forums
242: Forums
243: Forums
244: Your Account
245: Photo Albums
246: Home
247: Home
248: Home
249: Forums
250: Forums
251: Forums
252: Home
253: Home
254: Home
255: Forums
256: Home
257: Forums
258: Home
259: Forums
260: Your Account
261: Forums
262: Home
263: Forums
264: Home
265: Forums
266: Forums
267: Home
268: Forums
269: Your Account
270: Forums
271: Forums
272: Forums
273: Forums
274: Your Account
275: Home
276: Home
277: Photo Albums
278: Photo Albums
279: Forums
280: Your Account
281: Forums
282: Forums
283: Photo Albums
284: Forums
285: Forums
  BOT:
01: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Ackley Improved Chambers
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
Go to page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Rifleshooter09
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

I have two rifles. one a .223 rem and a .243 Win that i would like to have rechambered to the A. I. version of each. Anyone know anything about it. the pros and cons. who does the work? Anyone with prior experience please let me know.
Back to top
View user's profile
skip
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

I have some experience with Ackley Improved rifles and own one myself.
Do you understand the concept of an AI chamber? minimal taper, 40 degree shoulder?
There are basically only pro's that are achieved by an AI chambered rifle, case life is greatly improved, case stretch is also decreased dramatically.
Because of the new case dimensions the case will now hold more powder (depending on original case), which gives you a higher muzzle velocity.
A gunsmith that is qualified and has experience in Ackley Improving a chamber should be used.
As you would probably know factory ammo is fired through the improved chamber and comes out with the 40 degree shoulder and minimal taper.

I have probably missed something but im in a rush, cheers

_________________
skip
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
yotebuster
Member
Member


Joined: Oct 16, 2005
Posts: 216
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

What area of the country do you live in Rifleshooter? Maybe someone can make a recommendation based on your location.
What make and model of guns are they? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Yotebuster.

_________________
May all your Bloodtrails be Vertical!
Back to top
View user's profile
Rifleshooter09
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

I have done considerable study on the Improved concept and while i don't consider myself an expert i do know the basics. I have run into ppl who had trouble with fireforming brass properly etc etc. just wondered if anyone and any bad experiences or if things went exactly as planned. i have had retired machinist tell me that the minimal body taper is actually better for extraction than a more tapered case. Can't explain that one but thats what ackley says too. Thanks for the answer skip. What caliber is your rifle/weapon and how much velocity do you think you gain?

One rifle is a Savage 110 in .223 rem the other is a Stevens 200 in .243 Win. the .223 is a damned good shooter. 1/4 moa groups when it and i are both having good days. the .243 is still out to prove itself. still Doing a barrel break in on it.

I live in the Pacific Northwest yotebuster. I have heard of one gunsmith a lil jaunt from here that is supposed to be dang good but i haven't been able to get ahold of him. i know the .223 is a very popular improved chamber but i don't know about the .243 the hard part might be finding someone with the right reamer. I know you can buy em from midway but i don't reallly wanna buy a 100 dolllar reamer for cutting one chamber.

thanks for the replies guys any other information ya'll have would be appreciated.



watch yer topknot
Back to top
View user's profile
skip
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

I have a Sako L691 (Heavy Barrel Varmint) in .25-06 AI, I think In my particular Cal I gain probably 300 fps.

They feed very well, I have had no problems in that department.

_________________
skip
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
BillPa
Member
Member


Joined: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

Rifleshooter09 wrote:
I have two rifles. one a .223 rem and a .243 Win that i would like to have rechambered to the A. I. version of each. Anyone know anything about it. the pros and cons. who does the work? Anyone with prior experience please let me know.

A "True" improved cartridge will safely fire the parent factory cartridge if chambered correctly. A factory round will headspace on the neck shoulder junction with a .004" crush fit. Problems usually come from either a barrel chambered wrong or over resized brass prior to forming.
For a existing chamber, the barrel must be set back and then rechamberd. Failing to do this results in a longer chamber creating something other than a true AI.
The second mistake is resizing brass using a AI die,pushing the junction back the .004".

Here are three examples, a 22-250AI,250-3000AI and a 270-308AI next to the parent cartridge.

Notice,in all three examples, the location of the neck-shoulder junction.

Here are the three parents,smoked to show where they headspace in the AI chamber.


Next,the parent, a chamber cast and a formed 250-3000AI.


Of course after forming,handloading is a must,but factory ammo can be used in a pinch,but with slightly reduced velocities. In the case of the 270-08AI being a true wildcat ( actually an "Improved" wildcat) , no factory ammo exists, handloading is required.

There is always a debate if there are any real advantages to an AI. Generally velocities are the reason for chamberng. The 250 pictured,using a 100 grain bullet, easily reaches 3200 fps without loading to the max. Other reasons are a more accutate method of headspacing and reduced case stretch, ie brass life.

The most popular are 223,22-250,257,280,30-06 and more recently gaining some interest,the 260. Those show the greatest velocity increase over the parent rounds while others only a modest gain.

My list of AIs currently include a 22-250,250-3000,270-08 and 280 with a 260 and '06 in the works.

If your thinking or plan to have an existing barrel rechambered,make sure the 'smith is going to set the barrel back. If he/she says its not needed,find someone esle to do the job.! If its a new barrel/chamber or and barrel chambered in a shorter round like a 250 Sav going to a 257AI,ask for the chamber specs. There isn't a SAAMI spec for improved chambers. Some order reamers to their specs and my have differences dimensions. My 250AI was cut with a reamer having a .283" neck. Not a problem except loaded round measures .284" which require turning for a .2815" diameter.

Well, hopefully this helps!

Bill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
DallanC
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

Holy smokes BillPa, great info!

Why dont you copy that entire thing with picture and post it as an article submission for the Handloading Articles section? Thats good stuff to share!


-DallanC
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
BillPa
Member
Member


Joined: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
Holy smokes BillPa, great info!

Why dont you copy that entire thing with picture and post it as an article submission for the Handloading Articles section? Thats good stuff to share!

-DallanC

OK, I'll redo it a bit with somemore details,hopefully later today.

Bill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

Darryl Holland lives in Oregon, your neck of the woods, Rifleshooter. He would be a good person to perform the correct gunsmithing and probably has reamers in house. I have a 223AI, 257AI and 7X57AI and am well pleased with the results.

The main disadvantage is the process of fireforming. I like to have around 250 loaded rounds for each rifle and fireforming the brass takes that extra step, however, I know other AI shooters that simply take their initial rounds to the field and use them normally.

All of mine have shown significant velocity increases but one of the main reasons I like them is because they simply look great!

Over the years, the advantage of the 45 degree shoulder has been the subject of much discussion and debate. The RCBS improved versions feature less of an angle. While it may be academic, the 38 degree shoulder has theoretical advantages as far as gas flow turbulance from the case to the neck, but, the debate continues. Father Ackley's design if fine with me.
Back to top
View user's profile
Flint54
Member
Member


Joined: Apr 09, 2005
Posts: 389
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

Cool For informational purposes I truely believe that the "BEST" Person to contact about Ackley Improved Cartridges is a man named "Mike Bellm". Mike was an apprentice of P.O. Ackley and lives in Oregon, Bend I think. Here is a link to his site and contact information, also an article he wrote on some of P.O. Ackley's observations and ideas.

One thing that I would like to add is that if you are converting to an Ackley chamber is that to achieve optimum accuracy you need to cut off enough of the chamber area so as to remove all of the neck area from the original chamber. Doing this will allow who ever rechambers the barrel to align the chamber true with the bore. Also when fireforming it is advisable to use a low end charge and seat the bullet so it is in contact with the rifling, this will insure that the case does not move forward upon firing. This is just a bit of insurance that works very well for me. Cool

www.bellmtcs.com/TOC.htm

www.rvbprecision.com/m...lm.php?b=5
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

Flint54: thanks for the link! One of the allures of going Ackley Improved is that the handloader is entering into unchartered waters, at least for him. Ackleys loading manuals give some starting points, but, the finer points of Ackleyizing are often overlooked, such as you have mentioned.

Steve Timm has done much to popularize the 223 Improved and while not an official Ackley version (I don't think he did one), it follows the same formula.

Now, Flint54, what Ackleys do you load for?
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

I don't like to speak ill of anyone but I have seen some of what Mike does. One was a 45-70 contender that ended up in three pieces with a half box of factory ammo. Some of the loads he recommends are higher pressure than SAAMI proof loads - Like recommending .003" expansion at the web in order to find maximum when it has been shown that .0005" expansion at the web can indicate pressures as high as 70000 psi depending on brass and chamber? Recommending loads that cause 6 times that deformation is reckless if not bordering on criminal.
Take a long look at the guys website and what he recommends and does before you decide he is Ackley Jr. ok?

The forgoing note is the opinion of one man - it has no bearing on the opinion of anyone else and does not in any way represent the opinion of the management or ownership of this board.
copryright(c)2006 by Paul Stephens

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Flint54
Member
Member


Joined: Apr 09, 2005
Posts: 389
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

Cool My only Ackley Improved is an old Custom Remington .250 Savage Ackley Improved. It shoots very close to .257 Roberts with very good accuracy.

As far as Mike goes, in every one of my dealings with him and also Gary Reeder these two individuals are some of the most informed, intelligent and safety oriented people that I have delt with as far as TC Contenders. I have a .308 Bellm and a 7MM Bellm that are the two most accurate Contenders I have ever shot. I thought about the .309 JDJ but in looking at the loads used to achieve the velocities claimed they are too close to the boarderline for my tastes. I can't speak for the 45-70 as I have no knowledge but having the same caliber myself it can only be safely loaded to a MAX of 28,000. Loads developed for the Marlin CANNOT SAFELY BE USED IN A CONTENDER. I observed an individual use some GARRET loads and he also had a 3 piece barrel, the lug came off the barrel and the muzzle tamer came off also, the frame was ruined and stretched. If you want heavy 45-70 loads in your pistol get an ENCORE!

I used Don Scherer's case head expansion method for loading my Bellm cartridges with excellent results, you have to use NEW CASES ONLY! Once I observed .00015 expansion I dropped a minimum of 1gr. for a MAX Load. These loads show no case head expansion in my firearm. I really believe that the .003 figure was a complete misprint I surely would have questioned that prior to loading as should any informed reloader. I would hope that anyone getting to the level of using case head expansion would have been in the reloading arena for quite a few years and not a first time individual.

Anyway I do not intend to create an agguement over Mike, If you have any questions please PM me Thanks, Bob K. Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

duplicate post, big fingers, sorry


Last edited by Handloader on Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Ackley Improved Chambers Reply with quote

PaulS: your words of wisdom are important warnings to all that would undertake Improved or wildcat cartridges and you point out an obvious problem, that of taking loading data literally for a single source. Like Flint54 suggests, the .003 is, hopefully, a misprint and would lead the novice down a very rocky and dangerous road. I've noted this problem to Bellm so that he can correct the error. If his intent was .0003 headcase expansion, that would with range of normal pressures in strong actions.

As we expand our knowledge of cartridges and working pressures, of SAAMI and a host of other aspects of handloading, we become more aware of the associated risks. Sorting out which risks are acceptable and which are not can give improved results on the one hand or can lead to serious injury on the other hand. Some formal data pressures are held low due to weak actions still in use -- the 45-70 and 45 Colt come immediately to mind. Some data, however, is developed with the highest allowable pressure possible -- the Weatherby cartridges for example -- and even approaching those maximum levels must be done with utmost caution*.

Ackley designs were not, IMO, intended to exceed the factory pressurs of the round it modified (some exceptions include the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts, both held to lower than safe pressures in strong bolt actions because of weaker lever action and pump action rifles). Increased velocity is a matter of increased capacity. The other attendant advantages of case stretching are part of the advantages as well. The 250AI and 257AI show remarkable improvements over factory ammo when chambered in good bolt action rifles, improvements disproportionate to the mere increase in case capacity.

All of which is to say that such manipulations of loading data should be well researched and cross checked.

*My son and I are going to realize a lifelong ambition of hunting Africa next year. We contacted several outfitters at SHOT in Las Vegas and were surprised to hear that the Weatherby is not held in high esteem for African hunting! The main reason seems to be related to the higher pressures of the Weatherby ammo sometimes doing poorly in the heat associated with African hunting. Lower pressure big bores, such as the 416 Rigby, seldom experiece extraction problems. Or, so they said. If anyone following this list has personal experiences/knowledge I would appreciate a PM or starting anothe thread on the subject. My Rigby is on its way!!
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Gun & Firearm Discussions
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.