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12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Vince
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Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13024
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Ed, I'm really impressed with the development work you guys have put into this project. The idea of a rifled slug gun appeals to me so I will have to do some research into the viability and legality in Australia of building a custom such as you have done. If not, I still have my smooth bore O/U that doesn't mind slugs.

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

These Minie bullets we use in these sabots are stabilized very well in
12ga rifled barrels with even a slower 1 to 35 twist like the NEF 12ga Ultra.
Can you use the rifled Ultras there, If so you, can ream chambers from 3" to 3.5" very easy and get more power than 458Win in 12ga plastic case..Ed
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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

The hard part is licensing a custom rifle like that...although I suppose anything is possible with work.

Maybe one day, if I can justify a large calibre I can look at one.

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Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.



Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.



And A little funnin humor for us big bore nuts..Ed

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Elvis
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Posts: 6933
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

thats a good enough group for a deer in the woods for sure.

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Many guys want that good at 100-125yds, and with our sabot, they will get it
as most have better guns and eyes than I do.

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.



For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.



Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.



And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
Whoppee.....Ed

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hubel585
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Posts: 143

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.



Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.



Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.




The sabots are not moving very fast and I need money out of them asap, an
emergency bill coming... And seeing as how we're low on slugs to send with
the sabots, in big numbers, and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots,
and set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling them
fast in next few weeks . So we will be having a sale on just the sabots, in larger
amounts only. We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so the guys
can see what we have found that works.
Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags of sabots fit
in, that have an affordable postage cost to pay,we will sell these in 200,
300, and 400 size orders..So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping included.
Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68 plus shipping.
There was dozens of guys the last few years all over the internet that bought
undersize junk, that wanted good sabots, and complained that the ones they
bought elsewhere didn't work......We haven't heard from most of them, So guys
see if you got time, please help us out here..And setup for good shooting...Ed
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gelandangan
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Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 5705
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Hubel, that is lots of fun mate, slinging bricks at targets.

Maybe one day T-Rex are being revived like in Jurassic Park and thus the caliber would be popular.

Would love to one day get one of those baby canon of yours to obliterate game down under..

_________________
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A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

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hubel585
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Joined: Nov 27, 2011
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.





And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.



Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.



Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

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Elvis
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Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6933
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

sure beats Dad pinching the Brothers glass marbles to stick in a .12ga shot shell used shoot bailed pigs with when the $ werent there to go buy another box of solids!

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.



Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support to the
bottom of the slug.If in part of the loads the support gets cocked, then
the slug won't be straight on and can account for open groups.



Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.



Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super size.



Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.



Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine, third. AccReloading fourth...Ed
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hubel585
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.



A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.



Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20
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hubel585
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
the best size for the 12ga sabots.




A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed



Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed
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gelandangan
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Posts: 5705
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

WOW!

are those custom made brass?

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Well they are custom in the fact that they first run of new case,
but they are made on regular cartridge making equipment.
If I'm around long enough they should be a regular large game
cartridge, the premier #1, over 50cal big game case.


One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, 12ga Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759 & different slug.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect here. The Abolt barrel about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

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