HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: HackerAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 12440

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 129
BOT: 4
Total: 133
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: Photo Albums
10: Forums
11: Photo Albums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Home
18: Photo Albums
19: Forums
20: Photo Albums
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Photo Albums
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Photo Albums
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Home
33: Forums
34: Home
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Home
39: Photo Albums
40: News
41: Your Account
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Home
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Forums
56: Home
57: Forums
58: Your Account
59: Photo Albums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Your Account
64: Home
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Home
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Home
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Photo Albums
87: Forums
88: Forums
89: Home
90: Photo Albums
91: Forums
92: Forums
93: Forums
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Statistics
97: Forums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Forums
101: Forums
102: Forums
103: Home
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Home
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Forums
110: Forums
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Photo Albums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Photo Albums
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Photo Albums
121: Forums
122: Forums
123: Statistics
124: Forums
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Forums
128: Forums
129: Forums
  BOT:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Photo Albums
04: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 301
 Pictures: 2358
  · Views: 284723
  · Votes: 1297
  · Comments: 86
 

Support our Advertisers

Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

I’m having so much fun learning how to load with a single-stage press I can only laugh. Here is my latest situation. New factory rounds feed from the magazine with no issues in my new 6.8 build. The reloaded rounds that have been FL resized will not consistently feed from the magazines without jamming. It takes prying with a screw driver to get the bolt back open. Because they are not feeding reliably, I started chambering the reloaded rounds single-shot by pushing them into the chamber as far as I can and drop the bolt on them to get them the rest of the way in (if they were not all the way in to begin with). At least I was getting some data for my OCW ladder. Yes this is the rifle that had indentations in the brass after firing.

www.huntingnut.com/ind...pic&t=9537

I started checking everything searching for knowledge as to why this would happen. I mic’d my brass. The shoulder was getting pushed back 0.003 to 0.004 but the base resizing wasn’t what I expected. New brass was 0.416, fired brass was 0.420, and resized was 0.418-0.419. Turns out max SAMI dimensions for 6.8 is 0.421. Thinking I had a tight chamber, I slugged the chamber opening with one of my .45-70 lead slugs and mic'd it at 0.4231 which is in the middle of the spec. This doesn't look at the entire chamber but at least gives me more data to proceed forward. Looks like I’m getting 0.004 clearance on the base which should be good. Redding also suggested I check and see if resized, unloaded cases drop straight in. I found everyone did and they fall right back out. I have to press fired case in and they need to be "helped" back out. Next, I loaded up 4 of the resized cases with bullets only for a quick check. 1 of the 4 wouldn’t just “drop” in all the way any more and had to be “bumped” out. So I put them in a magazine. They all cycled but the tight one needed to get bumped out.

That’s about all I can manage in one night. I’m left with the question, what could be changing in the brass during the reloading process such that the loaded cases don't just drop into the chamber anymore?

Thanks for any help and suggestions.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2985
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

Take a few cases and load them to max loads and fire form them a couple times to get a true idea of your chamber dimensions. Then set your sizing die to push the shoulder back back between .001-.002".

.003-.004" might be a tad to much.

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 936
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

Mic your sized cases against factory loads. I'm betting that the sized cases are slightly larger than the factory ones. Remember that brass is springy and will "spring" back slightly after sizing and the resizing die probably isn't bringing it completely back to factory spec anyway. Factory ammo is designed to fit into any properly chambered rifle, whether the chamber is slightly over-sized or undersized. Many times a really good, minimum spec chambering job can make chambering a handload tricky without trying various sizing methods or even sizing dies.

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

Simply stated, somehow the brass is changing shape after its properly resized when powder is added and the bullets are seated which effects chambering.

0.003 to 0.004 shoulder setback is proper for an auto-loader.

Looks like I'll have to work up some loads and mic the entire length of the case like SSL suggested to figure out where the change is occurring. That isn't going to happen until this weekend.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

just mic'd the four rounds I used to test loading. The 3 that feed without issue were 0.418 or less at the base. The one that was sticky was 0.4193. I ran it back through the FL resizing die using 3 strokes and it did not change its dimension. I guess some individual brass pieces just don't like to conform. Before I go out for the next range session, I'll mic all the brass and separate them by base dimension. I hope this is all I have to do to fix this problem. Keep the ideas coming. Heading out to the left coast. Will report more this weekend.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 3382
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

If your fired cases fall in to the chamber and back out again then you may be crimping the bullet before it is seated. That causes the shoulder and possibly the body of the cartridge to expand. That will cause the brass to have to be forced into the chamber if it fits at all. If the brass is sticking after being fired then your load is too hot for your rifle.
Brass will spring back after being fired and filling the chamber. If the chamber expands then the brass over expands and sticks to the walls of the chamber as the chamber shrinks back down, this means the pressures are too high for your gun. Just because the load is less than or at the maximum spec does not mean that it is below the maximum pressure that your gun should have.
Even a round that has to be "forced" into a chamber should pretty much "fall out" of the chamber after firing.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 5702
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
just mic'd the four rounds I used to test loading. The 3 that feed without issue were 0.418 or less at the base. The one that was sticky was 0.4193. I ran it back through the FL resizing die using 3 strokes and it did not change its dimension. .

Are you saying that your case HEAD is expanding? Shocked
That could be caused by excessive pressure!!

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
you may be crimping the bullet before it is seated.

This may be a possibility. I can check this out over the weekend. Thanks for the suggestion

PaulS wrote:
If the brass is sticking after being fired then your load is too hot for your rifle .... Even a round that has to be "forced" into a chamber should pretty much "fall out" of the chamber after firing.

Paul, I believe this is all true for a bolt action. However, is this still the case in an AR when the brass is extracted from the chamber with under pressure?

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
Are you saying that your case HEAD is expanding?

I'm measuring the case where the base of the FL die sizes the case (at the bottom of the picture for the right case below). The die does size the brass in this location. I see this dimension change even on my .270.

That doesn't mean my loads aren't on the hot side. Another aspect to look into more. My primers aren't indicating high pressure like my .270 bolt action does. The 68 primers still have roundness on the edges.



6.8 spc 95 ttsx 30.5gr aa2200 2.290 2890 fps.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  119.92 KB
 Viewed:  3763 Time(s)

6.8 spc 95 ttsx 30.5gr aa2200 2.290 2890 fps.jpg


_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6932
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

the primers may look ok but whats with the shiney patches?????
what sort of / how much clearance from the lands have you?? if the projectile is engaging??? maybe interfering during chambering???

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

I'm learning about the marks. As the AR bolt opens, marks from the plunger and extractor can be left on the brass. I've read if pressures get extreme, brass will go into the creavaces of the bolt and then be lopped off when the bolt rotates. They are called "swipes". The ones at the 3 o'clock position looked like indentations.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 936
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

Maybe you have thought of this, but have you considered a "small base" sizing die? I'm not really well versed on auto cartridges in rifles, but I do know that some designs work much better and chamber cleaner using them. Of course, the down-side is that they work the brass even more than standard dies in an area that is prone to stretching and subsequent failure anyway.

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Vince
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13021
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

This may seem like a silly question Slim, but is the base of the shoulder "buckling" and forming a ridge when you seat the bullet and crimp? Because the seating/crimp die was not set up correctly it would force/push the neck down into the case and put a small ridge on the bottom edge of the shoulder. Chambering was between difficult and "wouldn't chamber".

I had this problem with my 30.30 some years ago and the symptoms were very similar to what you are suffering mate.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

SingleShotLover wrote:
have you considered a "small base" sizing die?

SSL, I'm trying to find out which companies make one. RCBS does. I may just go into Cabela's and ask them if I can take several dies home and try them.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7050
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting II or Help, why is brass changing its shape? Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
is the base of the shoulder "buckling" and forming a ridge when you seat the bullet and crimp?

Not silly at all, mate. PaulS suggested checking for issues caused by crimp. This is the first time I've used a crimp so I could be doing it incorrectly.

I won't be surprised if I have several contributors working against me. Here is what I have to check.

- small base resizing die
- loads are too hot (read where small primers on a 6.8 don't show overpressure signs before the pressure is too high)
- may need heavier buffer/spring to delay/slow-down extraction and reduce pressure levels
- crimped incorrectly

Keep the thoughts coming. This is what I live for!

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.