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"Mass shooting"??
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

Its almost like he wanted to be shot. He had more than enough time to shoot before either cop got around to drawing thier weapons. There was no reason the policeman missed any shot at that range and there only should have been 2 shots max.

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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

New York City has the most strict gun control in the country and a lot of good that does. Message for Bloomberg...It's not working Mayor! If he really wants to stop the senseless shootings, disarm the police. I can't believe they are allowed to carry firearms. They would have been better off allowing the suspect to flee, at least there would have only been one person shot. Keystone Cops move over, we have a new act in town.
Don

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

At this point I'm thinkng it was suicide by cop. Seems the guy was losing his apartment also.

As for the "2 shots max" thing; I was taught long ago to keep shooting until the threat was neutralized. Especially with a handgun that's probably going to take more than one shot.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

I agree totally Punkin...suicide by cop. Seems to be an easy way out that far too many are taking...those that don't have the courage to take the final step themselves. Put the final act in the hands of someone else...a poor unsuspecting Police Officer who has to live with killing someone for the rest of his life.

Cheers, Vince

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
As for the "2 shots max" thing; I was taught long ago to keep shooting until the threat was neutralized. .

Bingo. Very Happy

Also- don't group them too tight. Two hits to the same hole does jack-diddles. I know two guys I drilled they could snap two from a G17 and they'd almost one-hole! Start 'em a tad lower then let muzzle rise guide the second and 3rd to the melon if need be- string the shots on the vertical for massive tissue and organ trauma. Get the last one in the "T" and it's game over every time. Them cops need some serious training. Tragic they wont get it from NYC. It'll be Londontown soon enough.

Bloomberg is a Liberal's Liberal. Right up there with Billary on the "uselessness" scale. As far Chicago guess where Barry O hails from. Yup. Isn't it odd how high the shootings rates are from NYC and Chitown? Gun control fail on epic levels in Liberalville's everywhere. Try locking the recidivist's up for good next time.

Next!


STUPID LIBERALS!
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
As for the "2 shots max" thing; I was taught long ago to keep shooting until the threat was neutralized. Especially with a handgun that's probably going to take more than one shot.

well, two is more than one and a lot less than 14 to 16.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

"double tap" and if he is still moving one more double tap.
well, I found a way to conserve ammo... double tap - first center of mass and then the second one goes into the head.
That will usually stop anyone - even if they are wearing body armor.
we trained for "instinctive fire" going from heart, to right shoulder, to left shoulder, to heart to head. No using sights - just point and pull five rounds as fast as you can. we got good enough that we got bored with it and kept moving back from the targets until we got to 20 yards. At that range it was impressive but almost unusable because there was no need for it.
I started double tap - heart and head - after that. Its been too long to think I could do it now but I bet with a bit of practice....

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
"double tap" and if he is still moving one more double tap.
well, I found a way to conserve ammo... double tap - first center of mass and then the second one goes into the head.
That will usually stop anyone - even if they are wearing body armor.
we trained for "instinctive fire" going from heart, to right shoulder, to left shoulder, to heart to head. No using sights - just point and pull five rounds as fast as you can. we got good enough that we got bored with it and kept moving back from the targets until we got to 20 yards. At that range it was impressive but almost unusable because there was no need for it.
I started double tap - heart and head - after that. Its been too long to think I could do it now but I bet with a bit of practice....

Its like riding a bike Paul, it comes back pretty quickly.
All it takes is practice, and that is where the NY leos are probably falling down.
It takes a LOT of training to be fast and accurate, they just dont get it and a lot are probably apathetic about firearms anyway, and firearm training is an embuggerence at the best of times. They might get 60 rds a year, they need to be shooting that a week, I cant see that happening.
They also appear to need further training about performance and stress.
So the end result is the farce that occurred.
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Pisspoor
Performance

Anyway the poor first responders have to wear it once again, them and the unfortunate in the line of fire.

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MacD
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

I hate to be a 20/20 armchair QB but there were alternatives to blasting away like being in a paintball game. They panicked, used abysmal judgement and completely ignored innocents. I was trained to carry out armed boarding of vessels at sea. We spent a whole day on threat and risk assessment. Our exercises always had this as an element of the scenario. Safe use of your firearm was drilled into us like religion. Respect for life was given the highest priority. Gotta confess I am disturbed sometimes how people talk about taking a life like it was no different than swatting a fly. To have to use deadly force to protect against deadly force is acceptable but only until the threat is removed. To be so focused as to ignore innocent bystanders is unforgivable. The motto of the NYPD is "Faithful unto Death". The question now after this and the knife incident is "Who's death?".

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

MacD wrote:
Respect for life was given the highest priority. Gotta confess I am disturbed sometimes how people talk about taking a life like it was no different than swatting a fly. To have to use deadly force to protect against deadly force is acceptable but only until the threat is removed.

Real good point. I love hearing all the "I woulda..." stories. They don't realise the consequences. Too many video games. 9 out of 10 think the bullet stops at the perp, even if you miss. No clue about the Laser Rule.

When I first got into it my mindset needed a BIG tune up.

Living in Ca. if you take a life, or even use deadly force to defend your own, you are going to jail and pretty much everything you own will get sucked into court costs and if the perp lives he owns you and if he don't your sht better be air tight and gold plated. In this State it's presumed there's an "exit"...and you should take it. There's no good reason here for firing on another-..........

Unless you are a thug, and then it's OK, the State loves it's thugs, so much so they took away our right to carry. So by default thugs are the only ones that can carry. There's a lot of flies here that need SAWTing.
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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

MacD you hit the nail on the head. I have listened to way to may hero's say they would have made a difference. All to often people think that what they see on TV, or in games is reality. They give no thought to where the bullets go that do not hit their intended target. People have no idea of the magnitude of the split second decisions and the consequences of these decisions. Most of all they give no thought to what they must live with after they pull the trigger. Once you pull the trigger you can't bring the bullet back. These police officers will have to live with the consequences of their actions as will the bystanders and their families.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

Doesn't sound like NYC is going to recognize the wrong in what happened or take any actions to improve future Police reactions.

"Spray & Pray" is still alive and (wish I could say) well.

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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

Two issues I also see as contributing factors to this incident. First the fact that NYC requires officers weapons to have an 11lb. trigger pull and secondly their choice of ammo. I don't believe I've ever shot a handgun with an 11lb. trigger and would certainly not choose one for accuracy. Also from what I've read many of the rounds that were fired hit the perp and continued on to hit others. Maybe there might be a better choice of ammo to be used in the busy streets of this major city?
Don
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

An 11# looong first pull aint too far off for a DA. They are made like that for those that rest their finger on the trigger after clearing the holster to prevent an ND due to nerves, sudden movements etc. SA next pull would be significantly lighter on most DA pistols. Most deptartments wont allow SA only, due to "liability". Whatever that means.
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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: "Mass shooting"?? Reply with quote

No SA next pull for them, they carry Glocks so every pull will be the same 11lb. tug.
Don
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