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Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot"
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

I measured run out of 15 cases tonight that varied from true to 0.010 out. I then seated bullets in them using my Lee Classic and Redding Dies. Run-out with the bullets installed was never less (as expected). The Lee die often added 0.001 to 0.002 more. Run-out increased in the majority loads using the Redding Die, often 0.003-0.005. Most telling, was one loaded with a true case ended up with 0.010 run-out.

Time to start looking for higher quality dies.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Another thing to try is rotate the case when you resize it.
Resize, lower, rotate 90 or 180 deg, resize, see if that makes any difference to your case runout. You can also try this when you are seating projectiles.
Other things to check are the case holder in the press, is it a clip in floating type or secured by a screw, is it central?
Something else to try is a Lee collet die;
leeprecision.com/reloa...llet-dies/

I've had good results with a couple of these in .222, 25/06 and .308, run out usually under .002", works for me.

Cheers

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

is the powder from the same batch?
are you priming the same way??
my nosler manual suggests this could be an issue.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Elvis, yep all the same

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Well Slim...from everything I've read here, the only thing you have changed is the dies...everything else is the same, and since changing dies your accuracy has gone hell west and crooked. Says to me the problem is with the dies mate.

I don't think I would bother checking run out etc...I would replace the dies...with a different brand.

Cheers, Vince

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MacD
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Slim:

Read all this with interest.

Am I correct in saying that your neck run-out only gets bad after you seat a bullet and is better or worse depending on the bullet? This being the case (no pun) I would look very carefully at the shape of the hole in the seating stem. If it is off center or not drilled/reamed perfectly parallel to the axis of the stem this could be your problem. I initially wondered if your sizing die was pushing the shoulder back too far but you seem to have eliminated this possibility.

I am not one to comment on any particular make of equipment as even the best makers have the occasional defective product. Quality control is expensive and no manufacturer can check every item before it leaves the factory unless they recoup this cost from the consumer. I can say that the Lee dies that I have work within my level of expectation. They are worth what I paid for them. I had to make new seating stems for my .223 dies as the factory stem was too wide and deep to seat really long and narrow bullets such as the 40 grain Nosler BT's at the proper OAL. Boring those stems and then reaming them to shape was not easy. Even the smallest imperfection in the stainless material I used would cause the drill to deflect enough to cause the hole to wander off center. In the end I used a jig to keep the bit and blank stems absolutely parallel. My seating stems are better centered and true than the originals that came with the dies.

All this not to boast about my machining prowess but to illustrate that we sometimes have higher expectations of products than they can deliver at reasonable prices. Having said that, send the dies back if you don't trust them. The refund in your pocket is better than dies sitting in a drawer gathering dust.

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

mmm

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Last edited by fnuser on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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fnuser
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
dhc4ever wrote:
Another thing to test is the projectile seats concentricly ie minimal run out with the different dies.

I called a hunting buddy and he asked me over to his man-cave (a caboose he bought and put in his backyard back when the railroads decommisioned them). Most of his reloading equipment was of similar vintage and of high quality. He said let's check concentricity first. Some rounds had 0.015 of runout. Now I have to find out why.

The Lee die neck sizes down to 0.300 outside neck diameter. The Redding with button does 0.302. The Redding without button does 0.300 also. I may try few cases run through the Redding die without the button.
I've read your progress all along and just want to offer 2 things that you may have done and didn't post or maybe I missed them, I am unfamiliar with Lee hand loaders, but from what I understand you use them without shell holders. Did you use your shellholder/die combo when you visited this man-cave? or his shellholder? or did you just measure stuff? if that is the case it may be your press if that is your first batch you cranked out with it. So in short shell holder and press have you swapped them out with known goods? Something you might try before getting wrapped around the axle on those dies.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

MacD wrote:
I would look very carefully at the shape of the hole in the seating stem. If it is off center or not drilled/reamed perfectly parallel to the axis of the stem this could be your problem.

I follow your logic. I think I can figure out a way to check this out by marking the cases and seeing if the offset is always in the same direction. I might also be able to put this in a lath and see if there is any wobble.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

fnuser wrote:
Did you use your shellholder/die combo when you visited this man-cave? or his shellholder? or did you just measure stuff? if that is the case it may be your press if that is your first batch you cranked out with it.

Ah, yes. I didn't see the forest through the trees! The press is also a new new piece to the puzzle. I'll figure out how to check this also.

Thanks for stepping back and considering the bigger picture.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

MacD wrote:
we sometimes have higher expectations of products than they can deliver at reasonable prices. Having said that, send the dies back if you don't trust them. The refund in your pocket is better than dies sitting in a drawer gathering dust.

Being considered!

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Range Report. I got to the range yesterday morning. I sorted all my rounds by concentricity. Those that were 0.003" out of round or less in one pile. Those that were 0.005" or more in another. Velocity of those 0.005" or more out of round had greater velocity variation and averaged 75 fps less. The grouping also opened up.

I purchased some Redding Competition Dies that hold the bullet in alignment with the case prior to insertion. I'll see how these shoot next week.

All this money to get back to as good as my $25 Lee hand loader.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

My old Nosler manual has nothing but good things to say about those old die sets. they use one to compare factory to reloaded ammo with the hammer pressed stuff coming out a clear favourite!!!!
sounds like you are getting on top of the problem, keep us posted.

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

SHELL HOLDER.... Dont ask me how I know that on brands shell holder sometimes does not produce good round with another brands dies.... I did not do a lot of measuring but a new shell holder fixed the problem of runout and accuracy loss.

Seating halfway then turning 180 does help run out. But I use a Forster micrometer seating die and is is always less than .003" by just running it in.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Dawgdad wrote:
SHELL HOLDER.... Dont ask me how I know that on brands shell holder sometimes does not produce good round with another brands dies....

Yep, I'm going to get rid of that as a variable this week.

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