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Patterning....
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Got into an interesting discussion with an upland mate last night. Load this, choke that.

Then we got into pattering. He's of the school ya MUST pattern your gun or else...ya miss etc etc...

Told him aint the arrow, it's the Indian and all that book stuff dont fold and drop more birds- putting the shot in front of him and following through does.

As I see it, Patterning will tell you, based on an average of "X" shots, where your POI is vs. POA at a given distance when still-shooting and you'll never get the same one twice. Rarely is the tube sitting still. It's SWINGING in upland hunting. To truly tell what the colum is doing at a given distance is to swing it onto a target that can capture the colum as it's spreading in flight. And all that will tell you is what it's doing for that given swing speed/distance. At least that's my theory.

I'd like to try this sometime- maybe make a long clothes line and hang a few sheets end to end and see how it looks. I prefer whipping past the beak and breaking the sear on that and following through- when I do that they fold and flop, when I dont it's a clean miss everytime. . I doubt that the pattern will look anything like what a static pattern board will head on @ 40y. But I could ne wrong- wat say you?
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
But I could ne wrong- wat say you?

Stovey, I switch around between my upland barrel and home defense at the tactical shotgun matches I go to depending on the range to target and the shot size I'm allowed to use. I have found pattering a must if I'm going to get enough shot on a steel plate to knock it over, especially when they make me use 8s and not 6s. I would think its good to know if your patterning high or low when your hunting birds. I save up 3 by 3' sheets of cardboard then go out and to my pattering. I keep the target fixed and I pace away to the distance I want to get with. Need lots of card board compared to rifle shooting because you can't but multiple shots on one target. Not much exercise either compared to the 250 yard shooting I was doing this morning.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

As said and yes I agree for static target shooting, plates, turkey, yotes....REAL important to know what she's doing.

But when the target's ariborne, doing 20mph, yer barrel's doing more trying to catch up, et. al. I'd be really interested to see what the colum looks like from a swung barrel. I'm sure someone's done it. I'd like to compare the two.

I think I found a new project! And now I'm thinking about it...so there's a miss waiting to happen. Damnit!
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MacD
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

I haven't done much wing shooting in the past few years but used to be pretty good at grouse and ducks. I bought a box of clays last fall and as soon as I find the time, like after Aug 15, my last day of work. I will head out to the club for some trap shooting. I found that was the only way to keep up my skills and get to learn a new gun. Unless shotguns have changed I expect it is still my best way to bring my wing shot back to where it was. Now for a confession. I installed a red dot sight on my combination 22WMR/ 20 gauge. Never tried one before on a shotgun. Time and testing will tell if it comes off this hunting season.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

I use a Tasco 32mm RD on my 22, for swing shooting in the desert Mac. I cant see metalic sights so...it helps a TON chasing jack's and stuff. Beleive it or not I know of an old gent at the trap range that uses a scope on his shotty and he's pretty good!
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Stovey, even if I am swinging on a bird, I still want to know if my pattern is hi or low on the bead. Also, it would give me a lot of confidence if I knew the pattern was centered left-right on the bead. This knowledge would make my swing better.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Just try to explain what such a pattern tells you. I only use paper when I think the combination barrel/choke/load is a disaster. Because in practise it's saying nothing. Your shotstring is still 3 D and your pattern is 2 D, so a very nice pattern can still have nasty holes because pellets can have different speed and make the shotstring narrow but extremely long.

Instead of such patterning, just shoot once on a watersurface and you'll be surprised how long that shotstring realy is.

In my opinion there is 1 test you always have to do: cut a cartridge open and poor the shot on a plate. When the shot is very well round, it will stay on rolling, but when the shot is too soft and dended, the rolling will be interrupted by a sudden stop.
And when you want to shoot at long distances your shot better be completely round, not dended at all.
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Totally agree Slim. If you think it's better, it is! That's a proven fact.

I try not to think wingshooting. I swear every time I dont follow instinct its a guaranteed miss. Boom! Bird flys off like nothing happened.

I also think too many make way too much over the whole choke, load etc thing on small stuff like doves and quail. It simply dont add up to me when the barrel starts moving. If you do your part and place that string in front of him and follow through so he can fly into it and the pellets have enough oomph to go through its fold and flop. Every time. 1-2 in the body or one in the head, all ya need. Choke etc has diddles to do with it. Holes in patterns are holes in patterns. On the board they might disapear in the air- who's to say, shot does wild stuff in the air, esp the tail end charlies last out of the tube, guarntee they aint making it there.


Last edited by stovepipe on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Aloysius wrote:
just shoot once on a watersurface and you'll be surprised how long that shotstring realy is.
.

If only there was some water here (100*)...i could swing on a big puddle come next winter i guess and video that. Hmmm, wheels are turning. Thank you for the idea.
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
Stovey, even if I am swinging on a bird, I still want to know if my pattern is hi or low on the bead. .

Good point.

My SAR PA has no rib so..and I have to show a lot of ramp under the bead to get it where i want it. so i only use it for chuckar and jacks. It's a POS.

The Benellli is much better regulated. Lil high @ 25, pretty much there @ 40 near as i can tell from the car hood I was working over- dead center too.
And 40 is pushing with 7.5 & 8 shot. Farther than that forget it.
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Absolutely pattern your shotgun, remember if the pattern is not what it's suppose to be, the stock can be altered to make it right whether it's an add on or new stock.

I have an old J.C. Higgins pump 12g with the old polychoke and it always shot 2" low and 4" to the left, my old smith made a stock for it with a 1/2" higher 3/8th" castoff to the side and viola......NEW Gun. I still have it and fills up my upland bag yearly.

One other thing is not to forget chokes, you will be amazed at the difference using the same load with different chokes.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

right stovie here is the info you want, yes YES yes pattern your old smoke pole at 30 and 40 yrds and see what its doing.
why???? because different loads do real funny things and dont do what you might think. your favourite load of #7s might be real even but the new box you bought could be as lumpy as all heck and that just makes hitting what is a hard target harder. find the book shotgunning by the winchester press. its quite large. and has patterns at moving targets etc.he got the targets by putting huge wall type targets on a trailer and shooting at it as his WIFE Shocked drove past. at long range he was aiming INFRONT of the car!!!
its an older book but really good reading.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

found it
shotgunning the art and science by Bob Bristler.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

Stovey...patterning your shottie is the same as going to the range and checking zero on your rifle mate. The idea of patterning (as far as I have been told) is to see where your pattern is actually centered on your target in relation to your point of aim (or is that point of point?).

When you pattern, you are not only checking the number pieces of shot that land in a 30" circle...you are checking where the "centre" of your pattern is in relation to your POA. If your shot column is shooting a few inches low and a few inches left or right at 25 yards, then it will be further offline at say 40 or 50 yards. Remember, even though you don't "aim" a shotgun, you still use the bead on the end of the barrel as a "sight" to point. I know that when shooting clays (Trap) I "sit" the target on top of the bead for a (mostly) sure hit. However, when shooting Ball Trap (targets are moving heaps faster) I have to lead the target by up 2 or 3 yards depending on the angle of the shot. If I didn't pattern my shottie, and take any corrective measures like OV1 says, then my shot column will be nowhere near the "bird", let alone take it out. For example, I have an adjustable butt plate on my shottie that adjusts the position of the gun on mounting...it made a massive difference. As for chokes...again, check on the difference between chokes by patterning them. A choke will allow your shot string to be similar at different ranges...sort of extending the range of your pattern by maintaining its density at a longer range (even if only an extra 10 - 15 yards). Having said that, your shot column will lengthen the longer it is in flight...meaning its density at any given point alone that shot column will thin, or stretch out, the further it travels. A tighter choke, whilst not stopping this thinning will allow for a longer, but tighter shot column. Try shooting some clays one day mate, and you will see what I mean.

As for what your shot string is doing, patterning certainly will show you if there are any holes in your pattern. Think about it...if your pattern at 25 yards shows a couple of holes that are say 3" in diameter, think about what will happen to those holes as the range increases...they get bigger mate. Bigger holes = more chance of your bird not being hit. Adjusting your load, or using a different size choke can help correct that problem.

I like your idea of investigating the shot column though...should be extremely interesting. Would love to see pics or even a video of a shot column in flight showing the dispersion of the shot at different ranges and using different chokes.

Aloys wrote:
...In my opinion there is 1 test you always have to do: cut a cartridge open and poor the shot on a plate. When the shot is very well round, it will stay on rolling, but when the shot is too soft and dended, the rolling will be interrupted by a sudden stop.
And when you want to shoot at long distances your shot better be completely round, not dended at all.

I agree that the optimum is perfectly round shot mate...but shot doesn't need to be perfect to be effective. In fact, lead shot becomes quite distorted (flat spots etc) due to the ferocity of simply firing the round. My shooting buddy and I cast our own shot using a US made shotmaker. We cast #7.5 size shot and the shot varies between fairly round (often with a small hole like a burst bubble in it) to tear drop shaped with a small tail, and it performs every bit as good as commercially made shot. My buddy is a top grade Clays shooter (AA Grade) and he has taken quite some few "Top Gun" positions as well as regularly shooting "possibles" using our less than perfect shot. (Wish I could shoot as well as him.) We both shoot 26 gram loads doing approximately 1300 fps, so its not like we are using huge, heavy loads of shot.

Cheers, Vince

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Patterning.... Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
But when the target's ariborne, doing 20mph, yer barrel's doing more trying to catch up, et. al. I'd be really interested to see what the colum looks like from a swung barrel. I'm sure someone's done it. I'd like to compare the two.

I think I found a new project! And now I'm thinking about it...so there's a miss waiting to happen. Damnit!

Do the project if you like but you probably don't have to because I can tell you what will happen.

Most shotgun shells have plastic wads that keep the shot together until it exits the barrel. Said exiting of the barrel will only take a few milliseconds during which time, the shot speed being so much higher than the swing speed, the barrel will not move far at all before all the shot has exited the barrel.

Once the shot has exited the barrel, the movement of the barrel has no influence at all on it. Sure, the shot pattern will elongate so some would arrive at a moving target sooner than the rest but the pattern on a patterning target from a moving gun will not be much different than from a static gun.

From a moving bird's point of view or, from a moving patterning board's perspective things will be different. The pattern will be somewhat elongated in horizontal fashion on the patterning target or the bird might connect with the shot at the beginning, middle or end of the string. So, if you wish to do your test, you need to find a way to move your target as you swing.
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