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12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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hubel585
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Posts: 137

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

WE have velocity/pressure formulas and check them with our
chronographs and pressure testing in labs to verify.
As well as dozens reloading manuals, some computer programs.

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.



Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.



Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.



Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed

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Vince
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Posts: 12817
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I'm looking at these rounds in sabots and at least one of them bears an uncanny resemblance to the Gulandi wads I use in my 12g. The FMJ bullet in the four leaf sabot in particular. A Gulandi wad with the base removed so that all you are left with is the shot cup, would probably do a reasonable sort of a job I reckon.

I cast and load 1 oz LEE Key Drive slugs in my field 12g using straight wall plastic cases. I remove the petals from the wad, leaving about two or three millimetres to centre the slug on the wad. Shoots 4"-6" groups from my smooth bore O/U at 50 metres.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Could you post picture of that wad you do that with
or post the where to get it and part number.

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.



Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.



Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

hubel585 wrote:
...Could you post picture of that wad you do that with
or post the where to get it and part number.

Unfortunately I don't know the brand of the actual wad itself...my shooting buddy has had them for some years and gave me a quantity of them to try. They are a Gulandi style wad, for straight wall hulls. They were quite readily available out here in Australia about 5 or 6 years ago, but I haven't had a need to buy any for some time, so I haven't looked for them. I use the Claybuster wad now for my reloading for both field and clays, although I haven't yet tried them for slugs.



I have tried using the wads two different ways...leaving the petals in place or trimming the petals down so that there is about 1 or 2 millimetres of the petal left. I haven't been able to see any difference in the accuracy of the slugs between the two methods. The plastic in the petals is quite thick compared to other wads I have used...approximately .5mm in thickness, making the petals reasonably rigid. It is this rigidity that I believe makes them suitable as a slug "sabot". I will only use cast wads in my smoothbore O/U shotgun, so I can't attest to their suitability for jacketed projectiles.

Another wad that may be of interest to you is the wad that Federal are using in their clays loads. It is a two piece wad, albeit of a rather flimsy construction, but with an appropriate "shock absorbing" wad under it, it may be useful for slugs. The pictures below are of an unfired wad that I recovered from a Federal cartridge with a dud primer.



Not sure if any of this is useful to you...but there it is. It works for me in my 12 O/U smoothbore, so I suppose there is no real reason why it wouldn't work in other "rifles".

Cheers, Vince

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Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

A few here also use slugs like that in wads.They
cast their own slugs using Lee mold.

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED
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hubel585
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Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.



Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed




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Elvis
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Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

have you tried some wads fron steel shot loads??? these have very heavy side walls and come in all sorts of shapes some even have felt wads aswell.

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Yes we have shot some like putting a 12ga cast Lyman in 10ga
steel shotwad. Glued it in to make wad act like tail fin for
the slug to use in smooth bores. It was 525gr light load.
Used .620cal 750 slugs in 12ga steel shotwad, glued in.

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.



From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.



Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.



Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

GACK.....I want that Greener Martini !!!! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy That is an awesome looking rifle, and it shoots very well.

Must keep my eyes open for a Martini action. They are getting a little harder to find these days, but they are still around.

Another gun I really like is the Mossberg 695 Bolt Action smoothbore shotgun, but their rifled Slug Gun is also a nice piece of work. Would love to be able to get hold of either one.

Mossberg 695 Bolt Action Rifled Barrel Deer Gun

Mossberg 695 Bolt Action Turkey Gun

Cheers, Vince

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Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.





Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed



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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

that double is a very fine piece of gunmakers art at its best. what an awesome combo to have. those sabot photos are great too. looks just like pictures of shotgun wads with a projectile not shot as usually seen.

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".




5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled
barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

That is a very interesting point on the sabots for slugs.

Methinks I might have a little research and testing to do in order to try and see how much of a difference it will have on accuracy.

Cheers, Vince

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Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.






Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

That double gun looks very nice indeed Ed. Be nice to be able to afford to buy one.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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