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Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms?
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

This topic has been in my head for a long time.
It may or may not apply in countries such as USA where there is a RIGHT to bear arms.

Ok. Visualize this:
A baseball bat.
- this item is a tool for sport, in which the user is using the tool to propel a projectile away to a distance.
- this item is not called a weapon because the item is not created to defend or attack a person against hostile adversaries (although this last few words may be debatable)

An golf club
- this item is a tool for sport, in which the user is using the tool to propel a projectile away to a distance.
- this item is not called a weapon because the item is not created to defend or attack a person against hostile adversaries (although this last few words may be debatable)

I am sure that there are a lot more examples that could be placed here.

Now, here is where i want to point the argument to:
A gun
- this item is a tool for sport, in which the user is using the tool to propel a projectile away to a distance.
- this item is not called a weapon because the item is not created to defend or attack a person against hostile adversaries (although this last few words may be debatable)

-----------------
Baseball bats and golf clubs can and has been used to hurt (and kill) people.
If a Baseball bat, and Golf club is used in mind to defend yourself or to attack other THEN and ONLY THEN they are classified and called as a WEAPON or ARM.

Would it not be correct to put the same classification on GUNS?

In country like this Great Land of Oz, where police are so efficient in protecting the masses (thats what they told me)
we are NOT allowed to carry WEAPON or bear ARMS.

Carrying sports utensil such as baseball bats or golf clubs in public are not only tolerated,
they are often a symbol that the person is a sportsman (or woman) who cares about their wellbeing and thus commendable.

On the other hand, carrying sports utensil such as a rifle or a pistol.. WHOAH!! Hide them mate!, it is an eye sore..
They are called (fire)ARMS and WEAPON, even though the reason for them existing in a peaceful household are for sport utensil.

If you are served an AVO, the first thing the cops want to know is do you have firearms in premises?
then the sports utensil would be confiscated because they suddenly change from peaceful sporting utensil to a menacing WEAPON.

Do they worry about the collection of golf clubs or baseball bats leaning against the gun safe? NO..
those tools are not the magical sports utensil that could change forms and utility. They are simply inert dumb tools.

Yet, whenever the sporting utensils, kitchen utensils and workshop/garage tools
are in the hand of a person who is intending to defend or attack other, they magically cease to exist as its original purpose.
They have now became WEAPONS.

Some may argue that the original purpose for a gun to be invented is to became a weapon.
But would not this idea changes through the history?
There are other sports with its origin starts from war purposes.
Heck Marathon running IS related to war on its birth.
Tai Chi Chuan, and a lot of other calisthenics are in the same league.
Time changes and while there are still many people tries to attack you, most of us exists peacefully.
Many guns with exception of the military stuff are now existing to fulfill sports purposes.
So why are we still calling them WEAPONS while they are no longer made for that purpose?

Guys, I am rambling here..

But, the point of my rambling is, let us gun sports lovers call gun as gun, rifle as rifle and pistol as pistol.
Let us refuse to acknowledge our sporting tools as firearms or weapon.
Let us educate our surrounding masses that what we do is SPORT, NOT VIOLENCE.
And our sporting tools are guns not weapons.

Thanks for reading this long ramble, your comments whether is pro or contra will be much appreciated.

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d_hoffman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

Don't forget about the harmless "YO-YO", originaly invented and used as a weapon, is now a kids (and adults) toy.

Even a weapon invented down under, the boomerang, is concidered a toy.

Talking about golf. How many people have been struck by and killed with a golf ball?

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

All good Gelan, but I have always, and will continue, to refer to "guns" used for personal defense as "weapons".

If I use my beloved Remington 700 ADL .243 (which is a "hunting gun") in defense of my property, I would refer to it as a weapon. It it's headed to the field in search of game, it's a gun. As long as it's in my home, it's a gun, unless I need to use it as a weapon.

I think it's important that the gun owning community present a unified front. To pretend that we have "guns" that can't be used as "weapons" is irresponsible at best.

Please forgive me if I have mis-interpreted your post.

gelandangan wrote:

But, the point of my rambling is, let us gun sports lovers call gun as gun, rifle as rifle and pistol as pistol.
Let us refuse to acknowledge our sporting tools as firearms or weapon.
Let us educate our surrounding masses that what we do is SPORT, NOT VIOLENCE.
And our sporting tools are guns not weapons.

Thanks for reading this long ramble, your comments whether is pro or contra will be much appreciated.

It seems as though you forgot one fundamental use of guns (or weapons).
Personal defense can be a violent use of a weapon. And again, I'll stand by my RIGHT to use a WEAPON to defend myself if I feel the need to to so....

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d_hoffman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

Hey Joe, I agree 100% any gun is a weapon if it has to be used for self defence. Even something as simple as a pen, nail file, keys ect. can be called a weapon if you need to use it as such.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

Hey Gelan....I agree with your comments about identifying our tools of shooting sports as weapons. This is something that I said many years ago when the first round of Firearms Legislation came into being. The Govt labeled any gun/rifle/pistol as a weapon and the antis took up with it as well.

The term weapons has connotations to the average person. A lot of our laws, in Australia, rely on the feelings and beliefs of a "reasonable minded person" and how that person views something. If it becomes the accepted thing to call a gun/rifle/pistol a weapon, then in the eyes of a "reasonable minded person" that is exactly what they will become.

It will make no difference to the average person what the gun/rifle/pistol was designed to do...a free pistol designed to shoot an Olympic match, a shotgun designed to shoot Trap and Skeet, a target rifle, or in our case...a hunting rifle or shotgun. They will all be labeled as a weapon and suffer from the connotations and effects of that label.

Now, for you guys in the USA. Your Constitution uses the word ARMS in relation to guns/rifles/pistols and as such has given them an official label. It does not however call them weapons. I agree with the comments from a couple that say...when needed my gun/rifle/pistol will become a weapon...as can a baseball bat, golf club, hammer, axe, kitchen knife, house brick, knitting needle, hat pin...etc etc etc etc etc. However, to label your gun/rifle/pistol as a weapon, even though that may be your intended purpose for that sporting tool, whilst not politically, morally or legally incorrect, gives the Antis something to grab onto and use against you as a law abiding gun/rifle/pistol owner.

So...I do not own a sporting tool that I classify as a weapon. I own many items that can be used as a weapon, not all of them a gun/rifle/pistol. Consequently, I will always refer to my sporting tools as a gun, a rifle or a pistol (if I owned one).

HJ wrote:
It seems as though you forgot one fundamental use of guns (or weapons).
Personal defense can be a violent use of a weapon. And again, I'll stand by my RIGHT to use a WEAPON to defend myself if I feel the need to to so....

Mate, I agree with your sentiments...but until such time as you need to use your sporting tool as a weapon it is, in reality, nothing more than a sporting tool and should be called that in order the not give the Antis anything to use against you.

Cheers, Vince

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:46 am    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firear Reply with quote

That’s funny, gun or arms are not even mentioned in the definition !!! Mad

weap·on

weap·on [wéppən]
n (plural weap·ons)
1. device designed to injure or kill: a device designed to inflict injury or death on an opponent
2. something used to gain advantage: something used as a way of getting an advantage in a situation A teacher's best weapon can be humor.
3. zoology animal's protective part: an animal part used for defense or attack, e.g. claws


They are not just weapons anymore; they are “assault-weapons” !!!
But if we are forced to use this type of terminology, I insist that mine is a “defense-weapon” Laughing

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lesterg3
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

Gelandangan,

Yes I agree, calling our sporting goods weapons puts them in an awkward position, as we do not purchase them with the intent to be weapons, but to enjoy a shooting hobby that can include hunting, or target shooting, as is well evidenced by all the organizations that support, and create shooting games, and events.

That they can become weapons as well as almost a bazillion other things, including a hot cup-o-tea, or a pillow is not relevant. We all have to be very careful in this massively "politically correct" world so as not to further alienate other folks.

Definition of weapon:
Quote::

weapon (plural weapons)
an instrument of attack or defense in combat
an instrument or other means of harming or exerting control over another

I own firearms, including rifles, revolvers, and semi-automatic pistols. I do not own these with the intent of either item 1 or 2 in the definition of weapon. I own them to hunt game, shoot targets, and to have a great time with other hobbyists that enjoy the same type of sports.

The only time one of these firearms may become a weapon is if in my mind I believe that I am about to die by the hands of another person, and I cannot escape or find a another item for my self defense. I also own kitchen knives, I have a bottle of acetone, and I have my fingers and hands which do not become weapons until I use them to harm or control another person. And you sure as H-ll do not want me to pop you on the forehead with a Yo-YO, because I am good enough to crack your skull with it.

A lot of words just to say I think your right, but I guess I'm in a rambling mood today.

Thanks Gelandangan, you are right on.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson

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Wicky
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

gelandangan,
My thoughts echo yours and most of the rest of us I would think. I never refer to my firearms as weapons as I do not use them for that purpose. When I was in the Army I had a weapon but at home I had firearms!
If that was a ramble it was a good one!

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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firear Reply with quote

I have to disagree with you folks.

I have taught DNR Youth Firearms Safety for 35 years, NRA Safety for many years also, and have never called a gun a weapon.
I always call them Firearms, because that generically what they are.

A Firearm can turn into a weapon with one pull of the trigger at a person, but until then, it is a Firearm.

The NRA strictly prohibits all of it's Instructors to use the word Weapon, unless you are teaching offensive use of the guns.

As Firearm owners, we have to be sensitive to the uninformed about our sport, so as not to turn a person against Firearms use.

On this one, we have to keep our attitudes in our back pockets, and look like Alter Boys, so the Brady Bunch, has less ammunition to use on us.

Eric

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

Thank you for all your responses.
I am not going to quote and defend all my rambling above.
Nor I am going to reply individually to the responses.
I am not saying that guns or rifle cannot be used or called as a weapon when the occasion called for it.

There are a few to mention though.

At first, in places where it is by law or by necessity to ARM yourself with a WEAPON, yeah, I would call a gun if I carry one for that purpose, a weapon.

But even to call a gun, rifle or such, a "FIREARMS" it already elevating the status of a sporting tool to ARMS (meaning "weapon", well this is the part of English language that bugs me) category.

If I carry a sword, sabre or a spear down the road, most people I see would think, "hey this guy is into theatrical reenactment" - they do not see me carrying an ARM (besides the two attached limbs).

If I carry golf club, baseball bat, yoyo, or a boomerang, am I arming myself?
Why carrying a gun or a rifle called carrying a "fireARMS"?

Should I be classified as carrying a firearms whenever I carry a container of petrol (or gasoline) in my car?

Or would it means I am in a firearms whenever I get into my car?
My car combusting gasoline inside its metal cylinder and push the piston violently.
The combustion is controlled by an ignition device.
The combustion releases a high amount of energy and releasing a loud noise that is filtered by a SILENCER.
The result of the combustion can and has been used by other for WEAPON related purposes.

Basing on the above,
surely my guns and rifles are not ARMS, FIREARMS or WEAPON.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firear Reply with quote

Eric, I don’t think anyone is trying to force any attitude. All that’s being asked for is the proper usage of words and definitions!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firear Reply with quote

No problem Chamber.

I just take the political view of why piss off and scare folks that very well could be on our side on the gun issue by taking the hard ass road.

Sometimes a little bit of sugar {Firearm} instead of a size twelve, {Weapon} works better with the non informed. Very Happy


Eric

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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firearms? Reply with quote

So true Eckers...you catch more flies with Honey than you do with Vinegar.

Cheers, Vince

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sniper
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firear Reply with quote

We all have been struck by a wild, flying Semantic at one time or another.

A rather useful bit of doggerel that we used in the service to eliminate confusion:
".THIS is my rifle, and this is my gun, one is for fighting, the other for fun. "

Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Whats in a name? Should we call GUN - weapons or firear Reply with quote

To me they're firearms, or in a less formal setting; guns.

A firearm only becomes a weapon when used as such, as could a pool cue or even a rolled newspaper.

Not that any of this means squit when faced with a biased media of course.
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