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velocity vs bullet weight
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

357 mag carbine vs a 45-70

both at short range will kill deer well.

since your in NH {not knowing the hunting laws there} i would think the 357 may be slightly safer on a miss or a pass thru. i know some of the north eastern states are touchy on deer hunting rifles.

at 100 yards either are very acceptable deer loads.
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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

I wud be wary of the 357 in any bullet weight for deer .. But , I wont knock it , but , I wud tend to go with a heavier bullet , you want penetration ..
FPE is a bogus and ill concieved tool for comparison .. But people like it cause you get bigger numbers ..
Think outside the box , experiment .. Dang the ole lady and chillen .. Dimitri , chillen is offspring of any parent .. If you live to be a 100 ( God help us please ) and yo mother is still livin' , then you still one o' her chillen' .. Unfortunately parents are stuck with chillen all their lives ..

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

GroovyJack wrote:
If you live to be a 100 ( God help us please )

That is a good thing or a bad thing if I live to 100 ?? Laughing

Dimitri

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Yep! sure is Dimitri.

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Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
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kentucky hareraiser
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

as the ole' sayin goes....IF I'TS NOT BROKE ,DON'T FIX IT. good group@ 100 yd.

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

i look as much as bullet diameter. i have a 8mm a 303 brit and a 30 06 eddystone all with 150 grain bullets.

the 8mm is about .320 the 303 is .311 and the 06 is .308.

all three can be shot at the same velocity and all weigh the same but i believe the 8mm would have a bigger kill range because of the actual larger hole in the target.
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Spacedone,

I like that logic thats why I like the TKO factors. Smile

Using same bullet weights in the same velocity the 8mm would win in my mind.

Problem comes with the fact the 30-06 can push a 200gr for example faster then a 8mm Mauser for example because of the larger case capacity. Smile

PS. That 30-06 Eddystone is a M1917 (P17) ??

Dimitri

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

yes its a p17 thats been sported and actually needs a new barrel {old one was cut and is corrosive damaged} it also has the wings cut off and is in a fagin custom stock. i bought it cheap and plan to rebarrel it with a original new barrel.

yes at full load the 06 may outshoot a 8mm {i dont think so but it might} because it is faster but with the 8mm size difference is the kill percentege at a level where it actually makes a difference?
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Not too sure Spacedone, Remington doesnt list a 200gr load I'll check into it more tommorrow Smile

Dimitri

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

faster? fatter? copper? spitzer expanding, cast, flat point, large meplat...

Phooie! Somebody please tell me what difference the deer is going to realize between .308 and .320 when one is going 100 fps faster or slower than the other? If the shooter does his job in the field, and the bullet was selected for the velocity and hunting that deer isn't going to be able to tell the difference in the time it takes him to die from terminal, high velocity lead poisoning.
The debate on bullet diameter verses weight is all personal preference. We tend to select the bullet that works for us under the conditions that we choose to use with all the limitations in mind. I use my guns in different ways depending on where and what I am hunting. I might choose to use a light 130 grain bullet from my '06 to shoot deer in the head at 25 yards or a 165 grain spitzer bt for body shots out at 200 yards. I might use 158 grain pistol bullets in my 358 Win to plug coyotes or grouse or a 180 grain to shoulder shots on elk. Each gun is capable of using a wide range of bullet weights and designs to do different jobs that cater to special uses of the hunter. All can be done in good conscience as long as the limits of the gun, ammo and shooter are all taken into account. In each and every case the animal being shot can be killed cleanly.
Choose your ammo and let the other guy choose his - there is no absolute right or wrong way to hunt as long as the limits are taken into account.

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Paul
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Quote::
Choose your ammo and let the other guy choose his - there is no absolute right or wrong way to hunt as long as the limits are taken into account.

Now that is true Smile

Dimitri

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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Pauls, you hit the old nail on the head.........straight.
It is sometimes useful to get other peoples opinions...........and fun to see response, but the bottomline.....you are absolutely correct. The goal is a quick clean kill with minimum damage. Thanks for the input.
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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Back to the original post. The 357 in a carbine / rifle is a different critter entirely. The only draw back in the lever gun is the OAL if you want the round to feed through the action. However, you can still feed the gun single shot if you so desire.

In the Marlin, I like the 200 Remington RN bullet and H-110. You simply set the bullet down in the case and crimp over the ogive. A good measureing guide is a revolver cylinder. Set the bullet to be flush or just below the cylinder face when chambered and you are good to go, the round will feed in the Marlin action.

Regards the 180 grain bullets. Hornady makes two 180 grain .357 bullets, the single shot pistol and the spire point rifle bullet. You want to look at the rifle bullet. Speer makes a 180 flat point, which I have also used. I prefer the 180 Hornady rifle bullet, but that is just my preference. You can get 1600 with the 200, so the 180 is capable of better than that. The problem with the SP 180 is the OAL VS capacity.

If you try the 200 with H-110 you are going to be very happy with your little 357 carbine. Done correctly, the 357 will speak with authority. Your max load in a rifle is well beyond the 12 grains shown in some manuals for revolvers.

Oh, you can buy the Remington 200s for cheap, as bulk bullets, in plastic bags, from Midsouth Shooters Supply
Ed

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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

Swampfox, thank you for your response. This is exactly what I was refering to when I started this post.
I tried the Hornaday and Speer but, as you said, OAL is a real issue. I could seem to get the accuracy. I have been using Lil-gun powder. Have you experience resonable accurracy with your loads??
In this gun and the ranges expected here in NH woods (<100yds) I really would like to get something around 2 inch groups at 100. I could live with 3 but couldn't get that with the loads I tried.
What carbine do you use?
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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: velocity vs bullet weight Reply with quote

I use the Marlin and the Martini. I reloaded for a fellow that had an OU Savage. As a match director, at the range, I have seen and shot many 357 carbines made by various folks. Of the lever guns, the Marlin is, in my opinion, the best. We had a Cowboy Silhouette match every month for years, lever guns and rimmed cartridges on big bore handgun silhouette targets, out to 200 meters. After about 6 months the load I am about to give you was shot by everyone with a 357. Just about everyone had also switched to the little 357 Marlin.

I will give you the load and tell you how to load it: You start with Winchester or Midway brass brass. It must be thin webbed to keep the bulge down to a minimum at the bullet base. The bullet should be the Remington RN or if a cast, the RCBS 200 gr FN. I use Federal 205m primers. The load is 14.6 grains of H-110. The load must be highly compressed and hard crimped. The load shoots .5 inches at 100 with most guns with a good bore and a 1-14 to 1-16 twist barrel. I have shot the load in handguns and rifles. Every single gun shot the load. If done properly, the load can be inserted in the loading gate and functioned through the action. Of note, when you make a dummy, it will be shorter than the finished round, the powder will expand slightly, forcing the bullet out just a tad, so set the bullet deeper to allow, you will see this.

Rather than 357 Cases, I have used heavy 38 Spl cases, military brass. I have also created short 357 brass by cutting the brass back to use the crimping grove or cannelure. I shot this exact load for about 20 years in silhouette competition and won cast bullet revolver at the cast bullet internationals, shooting an 8-inch Python and this load. Do not worry about the rifle and the load.

On a vertical spinner, 8-inch plate by 6-inch plate, at 75 yards, the load in your Marlin will spin the plates.

Oh, in a single shot where you can seat the bullet out, the load goes to 18 grains with the 200 and runs 1760 fps out of a 10-inch handgun. That is Jim Rock's favorite load in one of his XL guns. The 18-grain load runs close to 2000 fps in a single shot rifle.
Ed

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